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wingnut170 wrote:Asking for a Bullseye shooting friend who is not on this forum. A question about the first shot from a cold and fouled barrel from his Hammerli 280 is consistantly about 4" high (like 4 ring) on a 50ft. SF target. The second shot is normally about 2" high and then it is 10 rings, all of these are from a rest. This is repeated after about 15 minutes, not neessarily a seperate day. Trying a variety of different ammo produced the same results with 3"-4" variation on the first shot. Does anyone have any explanation or suggestion.  Thanks in advance.

When I was at the top of my game, I would look for the first shot out of my Hammerli 208s to be in the X ring. This was at the beginning of a 2700. Often, the first shot was an X or close. It would give me a boost of confidence. My first shots from my machine rest, at 50 yards, were always within the rest of the 10 shot group. I doubt, seriously that the 4" high shot at 50 feet from a cold barrel is the fault of the barrel or gun. If he/she is as hard-headed as I am, put the pistol and ammo to the test at 50 yards while eliminating the human factor as much as possible.

I was watching a video of a 22 match rifle maker who said this was a result of a constriction somewhere in the barrel. He would cull those barrels that exhibited that first shot offset; there's nothing you can do (unless you get sighting shots of course). So apparently it has something to do with getting warm or lubed to overcome the constriction.

That is such a large variation in “cold bore zero” that the only plausible explanation is your friend cannot shoot off a rest. It’s either a consistent visual focus or consistent grip issue that he “settles” away from while shooting.

The cheapest “target” .22 with almost any non-bulk ammo is a 2-3” gun at 50 yards. A halfway-decent match .22 with good ammo is punching the letter “X” out of a 50 yard B6.

4 inches off POA at 50 feet is an unfathomable distance for a stray shot off a rest. That’s almost a foot of error out at 50 yards.

Someone else needs to shoot his gun. I’d bet a kidney it magically does not exhibit ~20MOA-off-group first round strays.

JRV wrote:That is such a large variation in  “cold bore zero” that the only plausible explanation is your friend cannot shoot off a rest.  It’s either a consistent visual focus or consistent grip issue that he “settles” away from while shooting.

The cheapest “target” .22 with almost any non-bulk ammo is a 2-3” gun at 50 yards.  A halfway-decent match .22 with good ammo is punching the letter “X” out of a 50 yard B6.  

4 inches off POA at 50 feet is an unfathomable distance for a stray shot off a rest.  That’s almost a foot of error out at 50 yards.  

Someone else needs to shoot his gun.  I’d bet a kidney it magically does not exhibit ~20MOA-off-group first round strays.

Thanks for your time.... The next 8 round off a rest are X's/10's.

BE Mike wrote:

wingnut170 wrote:Asking for a Bullseye shooting friend who is not on this forum. A question about the first shot from a cold and fouled barrel from his Hammerli 280 is consistantly about 4" high (like 4 ring) on a 50ft. SF target. The second shot is normally about 2" high and then it is 10 rings, all of these are from a rest. This is repeated after about 15 minutes, not neessarily a seperate day. Trying a variety of different ammo produced the same results with 3"-4" variation on the first shot. Does anyone have any explanation or suggestion.  Thanks in advance.

When I was at the top of my game, I would look for the first shot out of my Hammerli 208s to be in the X ring. This was at the beginning of a 2700. Often, the first shot was an X or close. It would give me a boost of confidence. My first shots from my machine rest, at 50 yards, were always within the rest of the 10 shot group. I doubt, seriously that the 4" high shot at 50 feet from a cold barrel is the fault of the barrel or gun. If he/she is as hard-headed as I am, put the pistol and ammo to the test at 50 yards while eliminating the human factor as much as possible.

Thanks for your time.... The next 8 round off a rest are X's/10's?

Centerline wrote:I was watching a video of a 22 match rifle maker who said this was a result of a constriction somewhere in the barrel. He would cull those barrels that exhibited that first shot offset; there's nothing you can do (unless you get sighting shots of course). So apparently it has something to do with getting warm or lubed to overcome the constriction.

Thanks.....At least that might be a direction to consider. This just started ?

Adam has shot quite a few 100-10x targets starting with cold barrel on the first string at 50 yards. So I don't think cold barrel is a problem. When I was at the top of my shooting I didn't notice any difference between the very first shot and the last being 30 rounds later. In addition I'm not sure if there is any warming of the barrel during slow fire. There quite a bit of time between shots and more time between string of slow fire.

wingnut170 wrote:

JRV wrote:That is such a large variation in  “cold bore zero” that the only plausible explanation is your friend cannot shoot off a rest.  It’s either a consistent visual focus or consistent grip issue that he “settles” away from while shooting.

The cheapest “target” .22 with almost any non-bulk ammo is a 2-3” gun at 50 yards.  A halfway-decent match .22 with good ammo is punching the letter “X” out of a 50 yard B6.  

4 inches off POA at 50 feet is an unfathomable distance for a stray shot off a rest.  That’s almost a foot of error out at 50 yards.  

Someone else needs to shoot his gun.  I’d bet a kidney it magically does not exhibit ~20MOA-off-group first round strays.

Thanks for your time.... The next 8 round off a rest are X's/10's.

Okay.  That information actually helps clear things up.  Is your friend "Gooch" over on TargetTalk?  There's a forum post over there that's a year old about high first-round flyers from a 280.  The poster (Gooch) claimed there appeared to be rotational play in his barrel, but later confirmed that the barrel mounting lug was still intact and solid.  Those are Gooch's only two posts on TT, but he posted photos from a Dropbox belonging to a F. Paul F. (not putting the full last name here).

Back to the target... If there are distinct Xes and 10s being shot off a rest, this leans even more towards shooter error.  There are no Xes on the 50ft slowfire target.  If there are Xes being shot, then that means we are talking about a X/10 ring group on a B3 timed/rapid target at 50 ft.  That's not a particularly tight group to begin with... There certainly should not be any non-Xes when shooting off a rest at a 50ft B3.

Has anyone else shot this Hammerli and reproduced this same phenomenon?

Since the original poster says he received enough info, could we talk now about a Clean bore? In everyone's testing, shooting 22lr lead and 45acp lead with lube groove, should I bother shooting 10 "fouling" shots after cleaning the guns before traveling for an outdoor (50 yard slowfire) match? Also, any trace oil in the barrel after clean, or dry?

I’ve never seen a difference between a clean barrel and a slightly dirtied barrel. I have only noticed differences with:

- leaded barrels
- guns that are sensitive to hand-seated vs. recoil spring seated rounds

Leaded, the accuracy falls apart. The hand-seating issue, worst I have ever seen was a couple inches “off” group at 50 yards.

There are two thoughts.  The clean bore theoretically does not shoot as a fouled bore will.  The other comes from Centerfire rifle that you should zero and shoot as clean as you can.  But I think that is changing.  I do know that the SEAL teams had some issues with retraining the Marines that supported them.  When they first arrived, the Marines all were ran through a makeshift range to check zeroes and weapons functioning.  Then the Marines took their guns back to their area and promptly cleaned them.  The SEALs pitched a fit telling the Marines they now had unknown weapons.  So they sent them back to the range so they could recheck functioning. Then they were told to leave them dirty.

Wobbley wrote:There are two thoughts.  The clean bore theoretically does not shoot as a fouled bore will.  The other comes from Centerfire rifle that you should zero and shoot as clean as you can.  But I think that is changing.  I do know that the SEAL teams had some issues with retraining the Marines that supported them.  When they first arrived, the Marines all were ran through a makeshift range to check zeroes and weapons functioning.  Then the Marines took their guns back to their area and promptly cleaned them.  The SEALs pitched a fit telling the Marines they now had unknown weapons.  So they sent them back to the range so they could recheck functioning. Then they were told to leave them dirty.

My original post wasn't just about a cold bore. I was aking a question for any ideas why the first couple of shots in a 300, for example would shoot like 4" high and then after two shots the group drops to the 10 / X ring. This was confirmed off a rest. any help?

Confirmed off a rest, by whom, is the key question. Multiple shooters of known ability, or just your friend?

If I had a mystery like this, it find a way to put a 6-8X riflescope on it and fire multiple groups of 5-10 shots from as best a rest as I could create.  Like a small backpack stuffed with a pillow or blanket.  Get multiple shooters to shoot the groups.  I bet the mystery is found in the grip of the shooter/owner.

Thank you JRV and Wobbley for your thoughtful replies!

A cold, clean bore shot is always different from follow-on shots.  How much so is dependent on the rifle.  LE and mil shooters have a known cold bore zero because they may only have the 1 shot.  Hunters should do the same but the misinformation out there about shooting 3 or 5 shot groups wrecks everyone.  


A cold clean bore is also different from a cold dirty bore.  Again, how much is dependent of the stick.  Only way to know is trigger time.

There are ways to get a cold clean bore to act more like a dirty bore, but again, it takes trigger time and experimenting.  Costs alot if you don't shoot Uncle's ammo.  Best to just keep a data book and know what your zeros are.