I want a new .45?

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I want a new .45?

Post by beeser on 7/14/2014, 1:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

I currently have a beautiful pre-70s Colt 1911 National Match that's much more accurate than my abilities.  But having said that I want another .45 for bullseye.  I've been looking at a number of options, some of which are not 1911s.  I really like the idea (haven't actually seen one close up) of a S&W 945 but I've been somewhat convinced that it might not be a good choice for steady bulleye use.  Apparently parts may be a problem to obtain and service is pretty much limited to S&W.  I still want one but not necessarily for bullseye.  I'm so impressed with my Pardini SP in .22lr that I should ask about their GT45.  Is that a good option or too good of an option for my novice status?  The only other .45 that I'm considering is a S&W Performance Center 1911.  The styling isn't totally to my liking but I hear good things about it.  The one direction I don't want to go is the Les Baer, Wilson, etc. route.  No offense to anyone that has one of these specialty 1911s but they just don't appeal to me for the time being.  So, any thoughts or suggestions.

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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by Brian Mason on 7/15/2014, 1:43 pm

I had the opportunity to Ransom Rest two Range Officers owned by another shooter recently. The first one grouped 6" at 50 yards and had an excellent trigger. The second one had a not so good trigger and grouped 11". There is an art to using the Ransom, and I thought it was possible I messed it up, so I tested a Sam's gun, which grouped at 1.5".

I think it's very possible to get lucky with an RO, and if not, a Kart EZ Fit barrel would probably tighten up the groups.

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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by DavidR on 7/15/2014, 2:55 pm

Many here have tested theirs and get 3'' or better, it depends a lot on the ammo used.
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by DavidR on 7/15/2014, 3:37 pm

beeser wrote:Below is what I was referring to when I stated that Les Baer does not have a guarantee in writing.  It's on their website along with the prices.  I'm not saying that LB won't stand by their products but it's not in writing.

Note: The Magnuson-Moss Act (Public Law 93-637) does not require any seller or manufacturer to give a written warranty. It does provide that if a written warranty is given, it must be designated as "limited” or as "full” and sets minimum standards for a "full” warranty. Les Baer Custom, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited” or "full”, rather than attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder. There are certain implied warranties under state law with respect to sales of consumer goods. As the extent and interpretation of these implied warranties varies from state to state, you should refer to your state statutes. Les Baer Custom, Inc. wishes to assure its customers of its continued interest in providing service to owners of Baer Custom firearms.
I think that's more to keep from getting sued from some dimwit that shoots himself or others. Baer back's his guns, he always has, call and ask him, unlike some big corp where no one is in charge to talk to you Les will.
If looking at all the alternative guns that could be used then a custom shop Smith and Wesson will work, as will a sig sauer or a hundred other 1911 clones and copies, Here is what you will run into if you don't buy a gun set up to shoot the bullseye, Many will not feed anything but full metal jacket ammo, you can do this but at twice the cost of reloading with lead semi wadcutters, So off to a gunsmith to have the barrel throated so they will feed also if they are not bullseye guns and you want to use a red dot add a couple of hundred for a mount and gunsmith work to install it. Then you want a match grade barrel, many 1911s have crap barrels cause they care about it holding a 3 or 4'' group at 25 yards,.  not like a true bullseye gun which will group better than that at 50 yards. then there is the trigger job, frame to slide tightness, many custom shop guns are fitted very loose so the function and there are a host of other things that goes into a gun purposely built for this sport over other models.


Last edited by DavidR on 7/15/2014, 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by Brian Mason on 7/15/2014, 3:40 pm

DavidR wrote:Many here have tested theirs and get 3'' or better, it depends a lot on the ammo used.

Yes, certainly--these were not my pistols and I did shoot more than a few groups. I think all I used were the Noslers with VV310 and Star 185 GR LSWC-HPs with Bullseye. It's quite possible more testing would have brought out more potential.

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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by Rob Kovach on 7/15/2014, 4:50 pm

Brian Mason wrote:I had the opportunity to Ransom Rest two Range Officers owned by another shooter recently. The first one grouped 6" at 50 yards and had an excellent trigger. The second one had a not so good trigger and grouped 11". There is an art to using the Ransom, and I thought it was possible I messed it up, so I tested a Sam's gun, which grouped at 1.5".

I've machine rest tested a handful of Range Officers and I can't imagine how you got groups so wide.  The widest wad group I've shot with one was 3.25"
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by DavidR on 7/16/2014, 9:54 am

they do come with wad cutter ready, throated match grade barrels as to quality getting less than the first ones its my feelings that Springfield built the first ones good then as they soared in popularity they had a short time of trying to supply the demand and quality may have suffered slightly. Now that they see how popular they are they have realized they have to build them great every time and quality is good or even better.
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by knightimac on 7/16/2014, 12:20 pm

Hi

I posted about my SS Springfield Loaded about a month and half ago.  I was getting 3.5" to 4" groups at 50 off sandbags.  As folks suggested, I kept tweaking ammo.  Now at 50, I can shoot sub 3" groups (2.75, 2.85 etc...) using 200 swc H&G 68's  (S&S hardcast bullets from NJ) over 4.2 grains of bullseye, assorted brass and federal primers. 

There has been no accuracy work done on this gun.  Only a rail mounted on the slide and trigger job.  Otherwise stock.


Last edited by knightimac on 7/16/2014, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling mistake)
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by Jwhelan939 on 7/17/2014, 7:15 am

Interesting, I was saving my pennies for a Les Baer Bullseye wadcutter. But based on this conversation, if the RO is that good, is the Les baer worth the extra 1200$?

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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 7/17/2014, 7:23 am

Jwhelan939 wrote:Interesting, I was saving my pennies for a Les Baer Bullseye wadcutter. But based on this conversation, if the RO is that good, is the Les baer worth the extra 1200$?

Absolutely not!
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/17/2014, 8:47 am

I second KC's opinion. The Baer pistols are all vary too much on quality of build. I work on several of them a year and they are not worth the money. I'm rebarreling a new one now. I've had customers send them back for barrels to be replaced by Baer for safety reasons. They're pretty, and some of them might shoot well, but as a whole I'd never buy one. You'll never see a Baer on the podium at nationals that wasn't rebuilt by another gunsmith.
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Re: I want a new .45?

Post by DavidR on 7/17/2014, 10:23 am

Jwhelan939 wrote:Interesting, I was saving my pennies for a Les Baer Bullseye wadcutter. But based on this conversation, if the RO is that good, is the Les baer worth the extra 1200$?

First, the price difference will not be 1200.00 after you add things to the RO, like a dot rail, trigger job and gunsmith fee's to bring it up to a LB. Im not saying buy one, but if you climb the ladder of quality vs price his guns are the lowest priced match grade true dedicated bullseye guns available, and with no wait as bullseye stores like champions choice keep them in stock. This to many is a big plus when you start shopping for guns built by others who list years as the wait time. Now im only going by my experience as a shooter and dealer, ive sold probably 25 les baers , I bought them from Gil Hebard and Champions choice and even had two built directly by Bare, several of these were bought and used by me. I have never seen a bad one as to frame slide fit or function, ive ransomed every one I bought for my on use and they all shot as good or better than the furnished test target, are they "THE BEST" surely not if you base them against guns from gunsmiths like  JON, KC, Joe chambers or, cabot, and many others where the price range is much higher. Saying one could never make it to the winners circle is just plain wrong of course it could in the hands of a person with the talent to be there in the first place. Anybody who knows this sport knows its more the shooter than what he shoots that wins matches local or national. If your budget and time frame limits your choices then  a Baer  would be a good choice , a range officer with some work will too as will many others. If you have a good 1911, Dave Salyer in N.C.will turn it into a tack driver for way les that any other gunsmith I know. It doesn't take a 5000.00 gun to be competitive in bullseye. I have a friend who took his stock Springfield GI model, put in a kart easy fit barrel himself and I ransome tested it at 2'' at 50 yards with his handloaded 185 lead bullets!  Again im not endorsing any gun, just listing the options, and differences.
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I'm (constantly) wanting a new 45 (because I love 'em)...

Post by Dipnet on 7/24/2014, 4:19 pm

Very interesting discussion.

I lucked out and was able to buy a Rock River Limited Match 6" before they stopped making them. After much research, I concluded this were the "no frills" Les Baer. This was the first expensive 45 I ever bought ($1900) and I went back and forth between a Baer and my gun, which was about $400 cheaper than a Baer but came with the 1.5" guarantee. Rock River sold them with naked slides and the only place on the gun that has its name is the adjustable Bomar. It came very tight and it continues to shoot very well. It shoots an enlarged one-hole group at 25 (with an occasional flyer--often the first shot) and shoots between 1.5 and 2.0" at 50 depending on the load. Latter verified by my Ransom (which I had to buy now that I owned an accurate gun...).

One can get here for less money; there is a stainless Baer set up for Bullseye, with scope, on Gunbroker right now for $1600, and it looks mint. I would never hesitate in buying a quality 45 in good condition. Or you can take a functional 70s model and dress it up with a Kart and action job. I've never had any regrets in buying my Rock River and I strongly suspect that Les Baer's would evoke similar loyalty over time (but I'm not a gunsmith). With firearms, you generally get what you pay for. I've got a buddy who is the luckiest guy I know with respect of falling into good deals, but most of us have to weigh what we want with what we can afford, wring our hands, and make the plunge. We are human and tend to shoot well with guns we like and divorce the ones we don't. Dipnet
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Re: I want a new .45?

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