New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

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New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Ghillieman on Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:13 pm

I am replacing the loose barrel in my 1911 hardball gun. I have access to a lathe, mill, and a machinist with decades of experience.

What is considered the best barrel for 230 FMJ hardball loads?
Regardless of hard fit or not, thanks.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by DeweyHales on Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:50 pm

Kart, Bar-Sto, or KKM. 

There are gunsmiths that swear by each. Kart is most people's choice.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by james r chapman on Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:46 pm

A machinist? Or a gunsmith? There is often a difference...

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by BE Mike on Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:48 am

I've heard that the Bar-Sto edges out the Kart where 230 gr. FMJ ammo is concerned, but the Kart is very good. Kart has an Easy Fit Barrel and Bushing kit that may work for you.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Axehandle on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:39 pm

Things constantly change but the tale I once heard was that the Barsto shot ball best while the Kart was the barrel for wadcutter. That said my ball gun has a Barsto barrel in it.  My wadcutter guns all have Karts.  The gun I recently sent KC for a new barrel fitting went with a new Kart barrel.  No easy fits either.   FWIW I think you are selling yourself short with an easy fit barrel and/or having it fitted by anything other than a bullseye gun builder.  If you are going to pay the bucks get the most possible for them..

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:34 pm

The names I hear being recommended are Barsto, KKM, Kart. Does anyone have an opinion about Schuemann Barrels?

Also, what area's of the barrel are considered essential to get a tight fit, what area's for a little clearance, for BE accuracy of course.

Any books on the subject that you all can recommend?

Thanks.

Ghillieman

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:21 pm

I prefer Kart barrels from a gunsmithing perspective and accuracy. Barsto makes a nice barrel, an equal in my opinion, but not worth the extra expense. KKM's are nice but require additional work on the gunsmith side and have a tighter bore that some chamber reamers might not fit. Schuemann barrels are poular with IPSC and PPC crowd but very expensive and not any more accurate than the Kart.

Fitting a barrel isn't so simple that you can just read a book,an article or a blog. A top level gunsmith has paid the price of many years of barrel fitting and typical under the watchful eye of a mentor. Barrels don't just fall into a pistol and shoot well. Most pistols are out of tolerance and require adjustments based on experience of the gunsmith to make corrections during the fitting process to fit it properly. And tight doesn't mean right!!! Tight in the right places but based on a chain of events; proper fitting. It starts when fitting the hood and then the upper barrel lugs. You might have to make trade offs because of improper machining; centered firing pin or not centered firing pin (high or low). Is the barrel bushing properly fit to slide and barrel (barrel springing). The bottom lugs are fit; do I have enough lug to flush the rear of the slide to the frame or do I have to stop short and recontour slide? Did I use the right link length? Is the barrel bedding on the frame correctly? Is my feed ramp too long? Is my headspace short or long after fitting the barrel before reaming chamber? The list goes on.....

I work on a lot of pistols and most barrels are not fit very well from a so called gunsmith. I've seen everything wrong to a few things wrong. Barrel fitting is an art. Anyone can say they fit a barrel to there pistol, but the odds are it wasn't done right even if it's tight. Last year I rebarrelled several NEW pistols with improperly fit match barrels. Pretty sad.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but only state pertinent facts based on my many years of being a competitor and a gunsmith. I would leave the barrel fitting to a true bullseye gunsmith if you want to get the results you're looking for with your EIC pistol. I have many friends that are journeyman master machinist, but they are not gunsmiths and they will tell you that.

Jon


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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Axehandle on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:18 pm

Just to add a bit more.  I've always felt that any good machinist could build a 1911 that will shoot.  The true tale of the well built 1911 is many tens of thousands of rounds down the road.  A well build gun will still shoot.  Butch Powel shot some personal guns built by the late great Joe Chambers that should have been worn completely out.  They still shot good.   I still remember my shooting coach talk about when he dropped off the All Guard team.  His scores were down a bit so he asked the All Guard gunsmith to stick it in the Ransom Rest.  It shot a better group that it did when it was a new build.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Dr.Don on Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:16 pm

My wadgun was built in the early 80's by Jim Clark (or one of his gunsmiths; no way to know for sure).  Oversize match barrels were not as easy to come by and were expensive, so Clark was still welding up Colt barrels and refitting them.  He claimed he had no real difficulty meeting the 3 inch guns he guaranteed using average Colt barrels.  My gun has such a barrel and it tested at about 2.4" if I remember correctly.  Still shoots great.  Oversize barrels are readily obtainable now and I suspect nobody bothers to weld them up anymore; that and the liability if it isn't done right.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by kc.crawford.7 on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:56 am

My choice for an EIC gun would be KKM. I have had the best luck with jacketed ammo out of KKM. And if it's a lead gun I use Kart. Just my .02

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:00 am

Barrels are one of my fascinations.. from .22 to 1911 .45.  The selection for .22  is by far, much better than the 1911, which has not changed much in its 100 year existence. Todays barrels are a remake of the original design to closer specs, and a micro finish in the bore. Hardly a match barrel.  Somewhere I have photos of most of today and yesterdays offerings, which I have dissected to get a clear view of the interior.  All are basically the same.. No innovation with twist or land to groove ratio.. It does matter..
I have said it before and stick by it. If you really want the ultimate match barrel, you will have to make it yourself. No one is making a barrel exclusively for bullseye gun accuracy.. At one time Bar Sto offered a Marine Corp cut. I don't think it's any longer available.. It's big advantage  was plenty of stock/material to allow precise fit. Many smiths hated it, because it took more time and effort to machine/fit. And there is a factor that appears often when asking for a special option from the barrel makers/vendors. The present day barrels are designed to be user friendly.. so the masses without a machine shop can install them. I'd love to have barrels rifled only, with no chamber cuts period..A single pointed chamber on the TRUE bore axis would produce better accuracy. KKM comes closest to this.
The .45 projectile is ballistically capable of sub inch 50 yard groups. "VERY" few barrels will do that out of a barrel tester. I have tested a lot of barrels,  but don't take my word, Rich Daniels has tested more 1911 barrels than any man alive..
I believe the reason we have progressed from 3 inch to 1-1/2inch groups as the standard, is the result of precision machining/ fitting, and not barrel development. 
Jerry

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Steve B on Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:23 pm

Jerry,
Are you getting ready to start developing new barrels?

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:56 pm

Steve B wrote:Jerry,
Are you getting ready to start developing new barrels?
Have turned a few out Douglas and Kreiger match rifle blanks. I wanted to try a more narrow land, and a faster twist. Everything so far has been very positive.. The draw back, is the time required to make each barrel..I intend to make some more first of next year.. experimental only.. not for sale..I also have a good friend who is making rifle blanks.. As soon as he catches up a little, he is going to change over to 1911.. Smile my source of barrels with no chambers..SmileSmile
Take care
Jerry

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Here's a story for you, Jerry:

I purchased and installed a Kart Easy-Fit in my wad gun several years ago.  I received it and went right straight to installing, without looking into the chamber in any close way.  Well, I got it all finished and took it to the range.  My testing is all done with a cross hair scope at 4x off the bench.  The best I could get was just over two inches, which I considered OK.  I then did a good cleaning and discovered, to my "horror," that the chamber was so far off the bore axis, that at the bottom of the barrel the leade only involved the lands, while at the top, it involved the grooves for fully as far as the lands at the bottom, and then continued into the lands for the same distance.  (I might be switched on my top and bottom - the gun isn't handy.)  Anyway, I contacted Kart, but spoke with someone else, who basically said that if the gun would shoot two inches, don't worry about it, the barrel was fine.

I later sent the barrel and some of my ammo to someone with a tester and they got groups on both sides of one inch at 50 yards.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Ghillieman on Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:57 am

A 1911 barrel from a Kreiger blank, now that is interesting!

I have a Kreiger 7.7 on my Service Rifle. It's a beautiful thing.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:38 am

Ghillieman wrote:A 1911 barrel from a Kreiger blank, now that is interesting!

I have a Kreiger 7.7 on my Service Rifle. It's a beautiful thing.

My understanding is, that Krieger does not make .45 blanks, except for test barrels on occassion...Lats taked with them at the Vegas about 6 years ago...
Ed;
Quite a story...Smile  I have sent many a barrel back for much less than that..
Jerry

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

Post by kwixdraw on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:25 am

Pac-Nor makes .45 pistol barrel blanks in six and eight groove configurations. They do some three and five groove barrels in other calibers. I have heard some good things about their barrels in the service rifle and long range areas. Maybe they could be convinced to do some faster twists and other rifling configurations.

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Re: New barrel for 1911 EIC Pistol

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