38 super wad gun?

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38 super wad gun?

Post by ASchlem on Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:03 pm

I have seen other post about 9mm converted to 38 super, and read about KC's tack driver. But I don't think I have ever seen one on the line. I'm interested in building one. If anyone has had success please share your build and testing experience. What kind of recoil? scope slide mounted? With the lighter center fire trigger this would also be a great base for my Nelson. And everyone loves pictures thanks

ASchlem

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:14 am

Another deep hole to throw money into but since I do it let's call it a 38 Super "Centerfire gun."   While we can shoot a semi wadcutter bullets in them the term "wadcutter gun" makes everyone think 45.   Allen Fulford had one in the 90s that was an exceptional shooting gun.  All the fine details went away when we lost Allen.   I had Dan Norwood build me one in the 90s but quit shooting in '96.   I've started playing with mine again.  I'll post details as I go along.  Just bought a Dillon SDB in 38 Super to speed up my loading process.. Brass isn't cheap and there is no military surplus 38 Super brass.   Does throw less lead...

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:12 am

Get a gun and start playing.  We'll compare notes.  More than one way to go here.  KC was shooting a 150 SWC cast bullet at a 38 wadcutter gun speed.  Allen Fulford was shooting a 115 JHP at about 1000 FPS.   Their are choices to make about brass too.  I'm currently playing with mixed brass, Zero 115 JHPs, and WW231.  Should be running about 1100 FPS.  Getting a big muzzle flash that won't matter outside but is distracting inside.  Planning to get to the range for some 50 yard and chrono work as soon as the outside temperature goes up and some free time presents itself.   Don't worry your mind with KCs 38 Super.  It is on the way to Alabama.  I'm sure he will build you another.   FWIW from what I remember Allen Fulford and James Clark Sr. were friends.  Allen got a lots of hands on help from the old master gun builder.  We need to jump in deep while we have hopes of getting KC to work with us.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:04 am

My first was built on a pre series 70 Colt.   This gun would have been a collector gun in any sort of decent condition.  It was not so it got the full target gun treatment with a 5 inch Kart barrel and dustcover scope mount.   This barrel does not have a ramped barrel.  While the IPSC gun needs such things a Bullseye gun does not.  As I hear KC's gun has a 6 inch Barsto barrel and will run the Red Buff mount that he recommends. 
 

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Larry Lang on Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Axehandle, It's a beauty...like lookin' at a well cared for '55 T-Bird.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by ASchlem on Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:36 pm

I have a free barsto barrel coming to me. So I guess im going to build around that. just haven't made up my mind on the 1911. cant see paying extra for a gun that im going to redo. I know Rock Island guns are lower cost but do they have decent machining and good steel? Don't really care if it has mim parts all over it, I will replace the important stuff. I can refit the slide, new barrel, and clean up the trigger and still be under the price of a Caspian frame and slide. And also have a 9mm to boot.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:57 am

I can't call good or bad material in 1911s.   A pretty 1911 does not mean that that it will make a good paper puncher.   I do some parts changing but I realize that I will never be up to the required Tool and Die Maker skill set of a Bullseye gun builder.   When having a gun built I listen to what the builder recommends.  

Talking more about the care and feeding of these things.   Keeping a supply of appropriate bullets, brass, and primers significantly increase the logistics of loading for practice and matches.  I traded for a Dillon SDB just for feeding my 38 Super.   My practice ammo is generally a mix of old personal and range brass.   There is some 38 Super Comp stuff mixed in my brass.  Noticed one marked 38 TJ last week.  I hear the 38 Super Comp brass loads and shoot the same but the difference in the case head size is so readily apparent just looking at them in the ammo case that I'd think that if your gun has any sort of borderline extractor you will experience functioning issues.  My match loads will come from a segregated batch of 38 Super brass.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:53 am

KC's 38 Super is here in Alabama for a visit.  This gun is built on a Caspian slide and frame with a Barsto barrel.   Just in time for the holiday stuff so I may not get to shoot it until next week.   Feels pretty good.  Mounted a 2X Burris and put some rubber grips on it.   Checked with Terry Labbe at Magnus Bullet Company.  He  casts a truncated cone bullet that is in the weight range that this gun was built to shoot.  I plan to try the Zero 115 JHP at a few 100 FPS faster first.  Just iPhone pics for today. 


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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:41 pm

Had to go pick up my paycheck.  Couldn't stand it.  Went back to the range with 20 rounds of my 115 JHP paper punching load in my pocket.  No time for a real evaluation but with just a quick look this little beast will shoot my 115s pretty well!   Burned about 5 rounds to get into the middle of the target at 50 feet.  At that point it wanted to stick them all in the same hole. Functioned well with minimal recoil too.   Lots of promise here!

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by ASchlem on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:09 am

Looking good. Can't wait to see some targets...

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by LenV on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:21 am

I would love to know what barrel they used? What the optimum twist rate is for a 38 super and if anything has to be done other than change the magazine and barrel if converting a RO 9mm to a super?

Len   ( getting serious about building one )

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:56 am

My 5 inch barrel Super has a Kart barrel.  KC's 6 inch Super has a Barsto barrel.  I'm thinking the KC Super is really going to show out.   It didn't miss a beat yesterday and was really sticking bullets in the same hole at 50 feet.   I'd recommend asking KC for details..

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:30 pm

50 feet isn't far enough away to check accuracy. Almost all calibers will shoot good at 50 feet. As we know the difference between 25 & 50 yards is the deal breaker. But I do hope it shoots well:p)
Jon

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:47 pm

Right!....  The is the first time I've ever done anything like this.  Rolling Eyes  Might be different if I had some  shooting experience and was shooting a documented 1.5 inch gun built by a proven gunsmith using a load based on one that a 2650 shooter developed. Very Happy

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by LenV on Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:52 pm

Axehandle,

   After shooting them both a bunch would you let us know if you think the 5 or 6" barrel is the better shooter. Right now I am about 50/50 on the fence on which way to go. I am leaning towards the 6" just so I can tell if I have the 9 or the super barrel in the pistol. I have a lot (thousands) of 9 loaded up so I am sure I will be training/playing a lot more with it in the 9 configuration. But it would be nice to know if one or the other performed better.

Thanks, Len   ( I haven't talked to KC but if it is the Barsto I would probably send him the whole upper to fit the 6)

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by ASchlem on Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:23 pm

Alright im in. Picked up a 9mm tonight.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:26 pm

5" is more forgiving for slow fire than the 6" barrel. I highly recommend going with the 5". Any accuracy between the two will be minimal.
Jon

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Wile E Coyote on Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:37 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:5" is more forgiving for slow fire than the 6" barrel. I highly recommend going with the 5". Any accuracy between the two will be minimal.
Jon
Why would a shorter barrel be more forgiving for SF and not so for TF & RF? 

-Jon (too)

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:42 pm

At 25 yards the extra weight (longslide) makes tf and rf a bit easier too shoot. Closer target doesn't seem to magnify difference between barrel length. At 50 yards if your fundamental technique is flawed it will show up at 50 yards. I know 1" of barrel length isn't much, but makes huge difference when you do something different from shot to shot. It's a human error thing. I was shooting with John Zurek after a match. We had just mounted a scope on a 6" pistol. After 3 shotsat 50 yards hhe turned to me and said, "wow you really have to be careful shooting a longslide". He normally shoots a 5" and he immediately felt the difference. I've shot longslides for over 20 years and am going to 5". More forgiving.
Jon

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Axehandle on Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:44 am

FWIW I'm a firm believer in shorter barrels myself.  The quicker that bullet is gone the less time I have to add an extra twitch to my shot execution.   The original Joe Chambers built me a 45 WC gun in '84.   He had 6 inch barrels and left the barrels long, unless the shooter insisted cutting to 5, because they shot so good at 6.  I shot my first iron sight 2600 with that gun soon after it arrived.  I personally watched that gun shoot 10 shot x ring 50 yard groups from a ransom rest. Note that the mechanicals behind a 6 inch barrel in a 5 inch slide and a 6 inch barrel in a 6 inch slide will differ slightly.   A porting advocate could very easily have the 6 inch in the 5 inch slide ported.   Now it may have been the new gun itch but this newest Super seemed to recoil softer that my 5 inch gun.   Only shot 15 rounds and the guns are not sprung the same.  We will know more next week when we shoot them side by side.

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:30 am

In 2013 at Canton Regional I had asked Brian Zins if he was shooting his 6" barreled (5"government length slide) pistol. He had previously posted a picture of it on Facebook. He laughed and said "I'm not holding that good". Longslide's are awesome to shoot when all is going well. But I really believe a 5" pistol will be easier to shoot consistently well. I'm not aware of a longslide pistol ever winning Perry? I think Darius Young is the only high master champion shooter I've seen shooting a longslide. When I was in my 20's and still breaking 2650 I didn't think a 6" was a detriment. Now that I'm older I can easily see the difference between shooting a 5" vs. 6" pistol. The 5" is just so much easier to shoot.
Jon

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Re: 38 super wad gun?

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