Question for Jerry and Jon

by jmdavis 1/7/2016, 11:56 am

Since a Marvel Rail and dot weighs about the same as a Steel Rib and sights, why do you think more people don't use loads in the <3.8 BE range for 25 yards? 3.8 is working pretty good for me based on Testing from the rest and exercises with the Wad Gun. But I recognize that less recoil does equal more points, particularly in rapid.

I have not tried anything lower than 3.6 with the 185. I know that 3.2 and 3.5 were often mentioned with the H&G 68 as "standard" loads.

I think that I see a series of science experiments in my future involving varying amounts of ORM-D and a Ransom Rest.

by Jon Eulette 1/7/2016, 1:36 pm

I think BE has had a shift from the old school loads because of the quest for having the most accurate load/pistol on the line. With the availability of Nosler and Zero 185 gr JHP bullets and the ability to easily get sub 1.5" groups out of wad guns, everyone now has to do it or they are not competitive. But those 1.5" groups come at a cost to the shooter. We typically have two kinds of shooters in the US. The military team shooters who train 5 days a week and then compete regularly, and the part-time shooter who gets to shoot on weekends on limited funding and match availability. I will primarily address the part-time shooter. Sub 1.5" ammunition comes at a cost; fatigue. Why? Because the higher velocity which creates more recoil. Since we have limited time to train and shoot, we don't have the strength, endurance, and stamina to consistently shoot the hotter ammo well. If our grip isn't consistent we will string our shots vertically because the hotter loads will whip up more in our hand. Less recoil is more forgiving in this regard; won't whip as high. A bonus to the higher velocity is less barrel time. It can improve your SF scores. What is acceptable accuracy? 1", 1.5", or 2"? You have to decide. Another issue is whose advice are you taking? A fellow marksman or a high master? Get the advice from the person who has accomplished mastering the sport. There are a lot of great pistols out there that are shooting sub 1.5" groups and being shot by all levels of ability: classifications. But again just because they/you might have the best shooting pistol on the line doesn't mean you/they are going to win with it. Strategy Wins! In this case you have to do some statistics. Will I shoot more 10's with 185 gr JHP that shoot 1" with high recoil at 50 yds, or will I shoot more 10's with 200 gr LSWC that shoot 2" with mild recoil at 50 yds. Remember you have to shoot 30 SF and 60 short line and do it all again (CF & .45) for a 2700. It's an endurance match. Reduced loads for 25 yds make all the sense in the world. Almost all bullets and powder combinations will shoot good at 25 yds at low velocities. Pro: less recoil equals easier recovery between shots. Will hold X-ring. Reduced loads will not fatigue you. Cons: have to load long line and short line ammo. Might need to change recoil spring between SF and NMC.
Reduced loads allow you to recover from the hard work of shooting SF match with hotter loads. Most of us are older. We don't recover quickly and need every advantage we can find to shoot well over the course of a 2700. I work my butt off shooting the long line and find it relaxing to shoot the short line. I need the break.

In my pistol I can't tell much difference between 4.0 - 4.2 gr BE with 200 gr Magnus LSWC at 50 yds. I'm happy with both loads. They all call 100%. They both shoot about 1.75" at 50 yds with mixed brass. I don't feel like they get away from me if I relax my grip slightly when breaking a shot. For 25 yds I use 3.3-3.5 BE with the same bullet. Short line feels like I'm cheating. I've shot 200-18X TF match with this load combination.
A few months ago I shot 1800 with 4.2 BE and 200 gr Magnus LSWC for entire 900. I didn't have time to load and had it on hand. The short line was miserable. I had to work extra hard to do what I can with reduced loads.
We typically shoot our limited practice and match schedule for most of the year. When Perry comes up we train harder and more frequently. If this is the case, then by all means shoot the most accurate loads with the higher velocity. If you get better results then stick with it. But be realistic with yourself; if you aren't shooting any better then don't change anything.
Lead bullets don't recoil as hard as jacketed bullets. Lead can be driven slower and still shoot excellent.
I know from reading post on this site that there are many shooters that can't get their pistols to function with the lighter loads. You have to experiment and see what will work for you.
99% of the pistols I build are slide mounted scoped. I use 4.0 gr of BE with 200 gr LSWC for function firing. After break in they will normally function with 3.5 gr BE. I laugh like a little kid every time I look at the knot I just shot. It's because it's so easy with the light loads.
Another thing I've noticed is that if your fundamentals are weak (stance, grip) that reduced loads sometimes don't function well.
I'm working with some local shooters and they are seeing the benefits of reduced loads on the short line. I have never put all my faith into a Ransom Rest. In my experience some loads shoot great from a rest but not from hand and vice versa. The 2700 match is shot from hand and I believe that is where it counts. Learn to call your shots. Train with a partner and take turns spotting for each other and calling shots. You shoot, call the shot and partner verifies it. Superb lesson!
Jon

by jmdavis 1/7/2016, 2:25 pm

Jon,

That is one of the best explanations of ANYTHING I have ever read. And it makes complete sense to me. Thank you.

by Jerry Keefer 1/7/2016, 3:15 pm

jmdavis wrote:Jon,

That is one of the best explanations of ANYTHING I have ever read. And it makes complete sense to me. Thank you.

YEP...!!!!!!!

by xmastershooter 1/7/2016, 7:46 pm

I had loaded some ammo with 3.6 BE 185gr HPSWC many years ago for the short line. Since it didn't function with my pistol, they sat in storage for 8 years and I forgot all about them. 4.0 BE worked best, especially in colder weather. I recently tried them again with the same pistol after years of breaking in, and to my surprise, they worked flawlessly and with so little recoil. As John wrote, it felt like I was cheating using this load.

Question: Would the velocity using a 200gr swaged SWC bullet be slower than a cast bullet? It seems that way although I've never used a chrono. While I get very good groups with both bullets at 50 yards using 4.0 BE when testing, the ZERO felt slower than the cast one (from NSK) while shooting in practice and in a match, with SF scores more challenging. My imagination?

Norman

by Chris Miceli 1/7/2016, 8:08 pm

any zero 185jhp load recommendations for the 25yard ? Im using 4.2 N310 for the entire 90 shots. iron sights.

by Jon Eulette 1/7/2016, 8:35 pm

Don't use jacketed for short line.....waste of money. Sorry ;p)
Jon

by Jon Eulette 1/7/2016, 8:43 pm

I've shot jacketed with 3.6 gr BE. If it functions they'll group at 25.
Jon

by Chris Miceli 1/7/2016, 8:49 pm

but I can't use lead for service pistol matches =]

by Jon Eulette 1/7/2016, 8:54 pm

Ouch, ya got me. I'm old school hard ball shooter. I forget about those modern things :p)
Jon

by **mspingeld** 1/13/2016, 2:20 pm

Jon, Thanks for the above. Can you give some insight on 185 vs 200 for a soft, short line load? Advantages of one over the other?

by Jon Eulette 1/13/2016, 2:28 pm

I personally don't feel much difference between the two weights. I like the 200 gr because of the nice holes. I shot 185's for many years and switched back to 200's in the last year and feel more confident shooting them. It's a visual thing.
Jon

by **mspingeld** 1/13/2016, 2:32 pm

Thanks, I was using 185 swaged hollow points from Zero for a while. Accurate and a nice clean hole as well. I stopped when my blood lead level went up to 44. I've been shooting my long line load (jacketed) for long & short but this thread is making me rethink a softer short line load. (lead level down to 11 and falling)

by dsandula 1/17/2016, 7:38 am

Jon - Write a Bullseye "soup to nuts" book. I'd buy it.

by **mspingeld** 1/17/2016, 8:49 am

Ditto!

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