Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

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Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:30 pm

I (a shaky 75 year old) have to contend with a good amount of shakes that keep that dot moving. To counter this I have made a stabilizer that attaches to my grip and does not contact my hand or body. Aprox. 14 inches long with 5 ounces of lead at the end
it improves my score by aprox 10%. The team Captain says he thinks it is legal and my research did not find any rule prohibiting it.
So I am asking if it is legal. TIA
Stew



Last edited by Stewswanson on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added photo)

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by CR10X on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:26 am

Look, I'm no referee but as a match director I'd like to see what it looks like when you shoot.  Please let me know if you get an official response (see below). 

You said it does not contact the body or body.  However, from this picture, is there the possibility it contacts the arm at any time, either raising, holding or lowering the pistol?

I'm simply observing that from the design, it looks like it can contact the underside of the shooting arm and therefore provide additional support.  For example, if the wrist tips down, the stabilizer comes in contact with the arm and provides additional support for the weight of the gun.   

Other than that, my recommendation is that you will need to send to NRA to confirm under Rule 3.18 - General.  And I'm saying you should ask for a response from the NRA or Referee with written confirmation, otherwise you are at the discretion of the Match Director, etc.; each of which may have a different interpretation of the situation.

Rule 3.18 General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official Referee, Jury Chairman, Supervisor, shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment and apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by JKR on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:03 am

You forgot to put on the butt plate.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:20 am

First, thanks for your response and input. Indeed, it does not touch the arm at any time. I am a lefty and the stabilizer stays to the right and slightly below the arm at all times. I will take some photos of it in use and submit to the NRA. In the meantime I will inform the opposing team captain of it's use before the match per 3.18. 
Stew

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:27 am

JKR wrote:You forgot to put on the butt plate.

Only use the butt plate when I am out hunting mammoths.
Stew

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by dronning on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:01 am

Good luck with your request, nothing personal but I hope it doesn't pass because I do believe they give some advantage if done correctly and the last thing I want to see are a line full of stabilized guns.

I was involved with archery for many years, the stabilizer may help some with your hold, where it really shines is on the release / trigger pull.  It would help eliminate or at least reduce poor trigger movement.

Shorter V shaped stabilizers would actually work better, it would also help with canting.

- Dave

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Agree with dronning

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:30 pm

dronning wrote:Good luck with your request, nothing personal but I hope it doesn't pass because I do believe they give some advantage if done correctly and the last thing I want to see are a line full of stabilized guns.

I was involved with archery for many years, the stabilizer may help some with your hold, where it really shines is on the release / trigger pull.  It would help eliminate or at least reduce poor trigger movement.

Shorter V shaped stabilizers would actually work better, it would also help with canting.

- Dave
I agree with it helping on trigger pull. I often have less than smooth pull and with the stabilizer on I am not having bad flyers, they are staying in the 8 ring instead of the 6. I have seen a V stabilizer on a Morini free pistol and it probably would work better. This is a first effort and until I find out it legality it doesn't pay to try to improve it but even this crude version is giving me about 10% better scores.
Stew

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by sharkdoctor on Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:14 pm

I agree with CR10X that you should get an official written ruling if you intend to use your stabilizer at matches.  That being said, and no offence intended,  you are likely to be watched like a hawk to ensure it isn't providing support, and if it even touches any part of your clothing, it likely will be disallowed by some sticklers.

Good luck to you, and in any case, keep shooting!

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Magload on Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:34 pm

I used many types of stabilizers on my target bows when shooting Field Archery Tournaments from the early 60s to the late 70 and they are a big help.  I used them off the front and the back.  Sometimes up to 5 at a time.  I agree that two in a V shape would be better and there would then be no way that they would touch your body or clothes.  I would make them so the weights could slide on the bars to adjust balance.  If this was allowed I would think a new class should be added, Unlimited Open.  Being old and a gadget person I would do it.  Don

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:50 pm

Magload wrote:I used many types of stabilizers on my target bows when shooting Field Archery Tournaments from the early 60s to the late 70 and they are a big help.  I used them off the front and the back.  Sometimes up to 5 at a time.  I agree that two in a V shape would be better and there would then be no way that they would touch your body or clothes.  I would make them so the weights could slide on the bars to adjust balance.  If this was allowed I would think a new class should be added, Unlimited Open.  Being old and a gadget person I would do it.  Don

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Image of arm/stab position

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:59 pm

This is the position when in use.
Stew



Last edited by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add photo)

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by CR10X on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:10 pm

I appreciate the initiative and I hope you can keep shooting no matter what the outcome.  

Again, I'd like the see the interpretation from NRA.  The rules in this are are pretty specific and pretty declaratory. I was stopped from shooting during slow fire at  Perry one time for having my pant's leg, not my leg, but just the cloth, touching the brace on the bottom of the bench.  The wind was blowing.  I was still asked to step further back. 

Rule 3.18 General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden


I can find no mention of stabilizers in the rules, and weights mentioned are generally "barrel weights", etc.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by desben on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:55 pm

International rules address this by requiring the pistol to fit a box. For standard and centerfire pistol events, the firearm must fit in a box 300x150x50mm, or roughly 12 x 6 x 2 inches. (ISSF rule 8.12, NRA International rule 3.2(a)).

NRA forgot to include such a requirement for Precision Pistol, it seems. Still, I would be surprised if they are allowed; my reasoning being that they would have been used over the years if they were permitted.

Stabilizers are sometimes used on free pistol (50m). I recall reading that in the UK they are actually required to stay above a certain minimum legal length. They use a long barrel, and long stabilizer bars at the back, and then it's considered a rifle or something; civilians being banned from owning pistols in the UK. Don't quote me on this Smile

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:59 pm

CR10X wrote:I appreciate the initiative and I hope you can keep shooting no matter what the outcome.  

Again, I'd like the see the interpretation from NRA.  The rules in this are are pretty specific and pretty declaratory. I was stopped from shooting during slow fire at  Perry one time for having my pant's leg, not my leg, but just the cloth, touching the brace on the bottom of the bench.  The wind was blowing.  I was still asked to step further back. 

Rule 3.18 General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden


I can find no mention of stabilizers in the rules, and weights mentioned are generally "barrel weights", etc.

Well, I have already sent an Email to the NRA explaining my stabilizer and forwarded the 4 pictures so perhaps next week I may get a clarification. It is not a major issue for me but perhaps an interesting learning experience. Thanks for your input.
Stew

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by james r chapman on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:01 am

It is an interesting issue.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by LenV on Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:33 pm

Being a commercial fisherman I have had to work with (read around) a lot of regulations. My devious mind noticed that magazine extensions are legal. There is no posted maximum length on the extension or description of composition. Smile

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Wes Lorenz on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:31 pm

You can put lead in the bottom of the mag, since we only load 5 rounds or get an extended mag and attach lead to the outside where it extends from the magwell.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by john bickar on Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:22 pm

WTF?

Why would you do this and think that it falls within the spirit of the rules?

Stand on your hind legs and hold a pistol with one hand like a gentle(man|woman).

We're not smallbore shooters.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by dronning on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:57 pm

john bickar wrote:WTF?
.......
We're not smallbore shooters.
  lol!

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by LenV on Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:26 pm

I think John may have missed the part where I was trying for a chuckle. Or at least a groan when I screwed a cleaning rod into the bottom of a magazine. I worked hard for that groan. Spent almost 5 minutes at it. Smile

Len

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by john bickar on Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:34 pm

LenV wrote:I think John may have missed the part where I was trying for a chuckle. Or at least a groan when I screwed a cleaning rod into the bottom of a magazine. I worked hard for that groan. Spent almost 5 minutes at it. Smile

Len

I chuckled, and oh, how I groaned.

I was more responding to the OP.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by james r chapman on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Oh! I thought that was just Len's tight magazine extractor...

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by LenV on Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:15 am

My apology to the OP but I just had to post this. First I started looking for 10 rd mags. Then I noticed they make 15 and 20. My search was complete when I found this one.


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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by joy2shoot on Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:32 am

john bickar wrote:
Stand on your hind legs ...

I like to think I am open minded, but I don't think I am ready to have quadrupeds on the firing line....

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:02 am

I've seen all kinds of brass rats on all fours on the firing line.  Now where did I drop all that sp 45 brass?

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

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