Training slow fire and rapid fire only

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Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by orpheoet on 10/1/2017, 8:57 pm

I've heard bits here and there about focusing on just slow and rapid. I shot next to a High Master this summer that was shooting all of his timed fire at rapid fire tempo(to great effect). Just curious what others have to say about the practice.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by john bickar on 10/1/2017, 9:24 pm

I never train timed fire.

I sometimes shoot timed fire in practice, but that's almost always when I'm shaking the dust off, and trying to transition into rapid fire.

I mostly train rapid fire. I sometimes train slow fire, but I find that PT and training rapid fire has a positive effect on slow fire.

YMMV.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by kjanracing on 10/1/2017, 9:37 pm

How are you training RF?
Kurt
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by SteveT on 10/2/2017, 7:16 am

Training for Timed Fire is not necessary and probably detrimental. If nothing else it takes up valuable training and practice time.

Timed Fire can be shot as continuous Slow Fire. This can help new shooters improve their score, but may slow progress in the long term. The only sustained fire training I recommend is Rapid Fire.

I use the "stair step" drill to train for Rapid Fire.

Choose a scoring ring that you can shoot when things are going well, but "thrown" shots will usually be outside. This can be the black, the 10 ring, or for newer shooters it might be just to keep them in the scoring rings.

Load 5 magazines with 1 round each. Follow the commands for a first shot drill using 2.5 or 3 second commands. If you get all 5 shots off within the reduced time and all fall within your chosen scoring ring then load 5 magazines with 2 rounds each. Repeat using 4 or 5 second commands. If you get all shots off within the time and within the scoring ring, then load 5 magazines with 3 rounds each and add 1 or 2 seconds to the time.

At each step, if you get all shots off in time and within the scoring ring, add 1 round to the magazines and add 1 or 2 seconds to the time.

If you ever put a shot outside the the scoring ring or don't get all the shots off in time then stop, subtract 1 round from the magazines and reduce the time.

If you get up to 5 shots in 10 seconds then Congratulations! You Win! When you can usually build up to 5 shots with only a few steps backward, choose a slightly smaller scoring ring goal.

The scoring rings on the Timed Fire target as fairly far apart, so jumping from one scoring ring to the next ring may be a big jump. You can use intermediate steps (All shots inside, not touching, the scoring ring) or use a slightly smaller scoring ring on the Slow Fire target.

A modification I use is to start with a dry fire cap or dummy round for the first round. If I make 5 good dry fire shots, with no "trigger jump" then I go to 1 live and 1 dummy in each magazine and follow the above procedure until I get to 5 live rounds (and no dummy)

I have a .zip file with 2-9 second commands on my Google Site (edited from the audio files from John Dreyer's old Bullseye Pistol web site).
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by desben on 10/2/2017, 7:56 am

I do a lot of standard pistol, where slow, timed and rapid are all on the same target at the same distance. A lot of people score better in timed compared to slow. As a result, some of them choose to use the timed cadence for slow fire.

Why do people shoot better in timed fire rather than slow fire, on the same target at the same distance?  My guess is because they actually commit to pressing the trigger when the sights look right. In slow fire, they probably interrupt the pressure as the gun wobbles.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Chris Miceli on 10/2/2017, 9:39 am

SteveT wrote:Training for Timed Fire is not necessary and probably detrimental. If nothing else it takes up valuable training and practice time.

Timed Fire can be shot as continuous Slow Fire. This can help new shooters improve their score, but may slow progress in the long term. The only sustained fire training I recommend is Rapid Fire.

I use the "stair step" drill to train for Rapid Fire.

Choose a scoring ring that you can shoot when things are going well, but "thrown" shots will usually be outside. This can be the black, the 10 ring, or for newer shooters it might be just to keep them in the scoring rings.

Load 5 magazines with 1 round each. Follow the commands for a first shot drill using 2.5 or 3 second commands. If you get all 5 shots off within the reduced time and all fall within your chosen scoring ring then load 5 magazines with 2 rounds each. Repeat using 4 or 5 second commands. If you get all shots off within the time and within the scoring ring, then load 5 magazines with 3 rounds each and add 1 or 2 seconds to the time.

At each step, if you get all shots off in time and within the scoring ring, add 1 round to the magazines and add 1 or 2 seconds to the time.

If you ever put a shot outside the the scoring ring or don't get all the shots off in time then stop, subtract 1 round from the magazines and reduce the time.

If you get up to 5 shots in 10 seconds then Congratulations! You Win! When you can usually build up to 5 shots with only a few steps backward, choose a slightly smaller scoring ring goal.

The scoring rings on the Timed Fire target as fairly far apart, so jumping from one scoring ring to the next ring may be a big jump. You can use intermediate steps (All shots inside, not touching, the scoring ring) or use a slightly smaller scoring ring on the Slow Fire target.

A modification I use is to start with a dry fire cap or dummy round for the first round. If I make 5 good dry fire shots, with no "trigger jump" then I go to 1 live and 1 dummy in each magazine and follow the above procedure until I get to 5 live rounds (and no dummy)

I have a .zip file with 2-9 second commands on my Google Site (edited from the audio files from John Dreyer's old Bullseye Pistol web site).


dang who owns 5 magazines for the same gun =]

When i get to the range i'll throw up 2 strings of timed fire, If it goes well off to rapid fire 1-2 shot drills. 
If it doesn't go well i try for 20 in the 10 ring slow fire pace. Then off to rapid fire 1-2 shot drills.
I like to end with some slow fire 50 yard work.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by dronning on 10/2/2017, 10:29 am

Chris Miceli wrote:dang who owns 5 magazines for the same gun =]
How about 18 & all shoot to the same POI - Tripp Research mags are a work of art.

- Dave
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Jon Eulette on 10/2/2017, 10:45 am

dronning wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:dang who owns 5 magazines for the same gun =]
How about 18 & all shoot to the same POI - Tripp Research mags are a work of art.

- Dave

I wonder if there is a word for too many magazines? Polygamy is all ready taken Wink

Well I like TF practice because I believe in learning how to shoot 5 shots that all 5 can be 'felt' and 'look' the same. In other words, RF is typically too fast for most shooters to know if all 5 shots 'looked' and 'felt' the same. Obviously SF is one shot at a time. So TF allows you to shoot with practically no time constraint and you can work each trigger squeeze identically. I've learned to 'feel' my RF shots break the same through this mastering of TF. I believe in learning to shoot 5 good shots in a string. If you can't do it in TF you'll rarely get it right in RF. 
Jon
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Wobbley on 10/2/2017, 11:01 am

Jon wrote:
I wonder if there is a word for too many magazines? Polygamy is all ready taken Wink

Polymagy?

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by LenV on 10/2/2017, 11:16 am

OCD? think that works.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by dronning on 10/2/2017, 1:55 pm

LenV wrote:OCD? think that works.
lol! 
My wife would tell I'm about as far away from OCD as you can get, just a peek at my workbench and you would understand!  I don't carry 18 mags anymore just too heavy.
Why do I have so many Tripp mags?  I replaced every single 1911 mag I had with a Tripp (bought 5 for each gun) put all the others in a box.  Not saying I had problems with most of them just that I have never had a problem with a Tripp in any of my 1911's.
- Dave
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Magload on 10/2/2017, 4:02 pm

Ok guess maybe i been practicing wrong since I started BE this year.  The only TF or RF I have done is at the two club matches.  I shoot 4 or 5 times a week but only 50 to 100 rounds of 22 and 50 of 45 or 38 all slow fire.  I would burn up to much ammo RF or spend very little time are the range.   I guess I was thinking if I can't shoot every shot in the black SF I sure wasn't going to do it RF.  The TF time is about what I shoot SF at and that is with lowering the gun.  The indoor range i belong to doesn't have turning targets and the outdoor one does but they are only hooked up for matches.  I have the phone app but that just isn't the same I don't think.  Don
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Wobbley on 10/2/2017, 4:08 pm

Maybe the way to practice timed fire is to do it on a 25 yard slow fire target.  The extra difficulty will require good shots only.

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by pistol champ on 10/2/2017, 6:18 pm

I train more for the phase that I need the most improvement in. I always work on slow fire as I can always use a few more points in that phase. If my timed fire score or X count goes down I will work on that phase. I hate to give up points in timed.

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Chris Miceli on 10/2/2017, 7:28 pm

Wobbley wrote:Maybe the way to practice timed fire is to do it on a 25 yard slow fire target.  The extra difficulty will require good shots only.
My goal is groups not scoring rings, but I like them all in the 10 and mostly in the X
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Ed Hall on 10/2/2017, 7:34 pm

Quick couple of questions:

How many of you work on the mental side of your training sessions prior to firing the rounds?  How many take notes (hopefully of positive details) during their sessions?

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by desben on 10/2/2017, 7:49 pm

Hi Ed,
I've never put much thought about thinking prior to starting to shoot; I start and stay positive, that's all. I'll consider visualizing that perfect shot process and the resulting 10 prior. As for taking notes, yes! After a good target (like a recent 99 slow fire!), I write down the details and the results. Physical things, like grip and finger position, process, like commit to pressing the damn trigger, the result, and what I saw during the shots.

But what does this all have to do with shooting timed as rapid?

Regards
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by LenV on 10/2/2017, 7:58 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Wobbley wrote:Maybe the way to practice timed fire is to do it on a 25 yard slow fire target.  The extra difficulty will require good shots only.
My goal is groups not scoring rings, but I like them all in the 10 and mostly in the X
 Skipping Ed Halls question for a second. Wobbley that would be backwards from the way I do it. Like Chris I am more interested in the group then score. And not that focused on group either. It is all about the trigger. I will post a clean target and keep shooting 5 shot mags at it until I run out of ammo or put one in the white. It is usually the last drill I do of the day and I know I am not shooting for score but to see how long I can stay focused on the trigger. I spend most of my time on the range doing slow fire. I need that more then rapid fire. And I confess to not writing anything down. But I take lots of pictures.  Smile

Normal last target
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by john bickar on 10/2/2017, 11:04 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Quick couple of questions:

How many of you work on the mental side of your training sessions prior to firing the rounds?  How many take notes (hopefully of positive details) during their sessions?

raises hand
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by john bickar on 10/2/2017, 11:10 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:

Well I like TF practice because I believe in learning how to shoot 5 shots that all 5 can be 'felt' and 'look' the same. In other words, RF is typically too fast for most shooters to know if all 5 shots 'looked' and 'felt' the same. Obviously SF is one shot at a time. So TF allows you to shoot with practically no time constraint and you can work each trigger squeeze identically. I've learned to 'feel' my RF shots break the same through this mastering of TF. I believe in learning to shoot 5 good shots in a string. If you can't do it in TF you'll rarely get it right in RF. 
Jon

This is good food for thought. I think this is good advice for up-and-comers; I sometimes forget that I was once a Sharpshooter.

The many noobs that come through our leagues and matches, I keep an eye on their timed fire scores. If they can shoot timed fire, they can shoot; they just need to learn to shoot slow and rapid. Some learn to do it, some don't. But if they can't shoot timed fire, there's not much I can do to help them.
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Chris Miceli on 10/3/2017, 5:31 am

john bickar wrote:
Ed Hall wrote:Quick couple of questions:

How many of you work on the mental side of your training sessions prior to firing the rounds?  How many take notes (hopefully of positive details) during their sessions?

raises hand

via GIPHY



The thing i need to work on is my last rapid fire of each caliber is usually my worst
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Ed Hall on 10/3/2017, 11:02 am

desben wrote:Hi Ed,
I've never put much thought about thinking prior to starting to shoot; I start and stay positive, that's all. I'll consider visualizing that perfect shot process and the resulting 10 prior. As for taking notes, yes! After a good target (like a recent 99 slow fire!), I write down the details and the results. Physical things, like grip and finger position, process, like commit to pressing the damn trigger, the result, and what I saw during the shots.

But what does this all have to do with shooting timed as rapid?

Regards
Sorry, I thought the thread had turned to Slow Fire and Rapid Fire training.  Carry on!

Edit: I suppose I should touch upon Timed/Rapid, since I stepped into the pool:

I use the "progressive drill" I'm sure you all saw elsewhere on the forum.  I don't really "shoot" for a Timed or Rapid cadence, but once I'm shooting all five tens in the drill, I'm pretty close to a Rapid cadence.

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by Jack H on 10/3/2017, 12:23 pm

I love to watch as my sights do a good string in rhythm with my trigger
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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

Post by w4ti on 10/4/2017, 12:23 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Quick couple of questions:

How many of you work on the mental side of your training sessions prior to firing the rounds?  How many take notes (hopefully of positive details) during their sessions?

Ed-

I've been keeping a shooting journal this year- something I used to do when I was serious at sporting clays. I'm still working out exactly how I need to "code" the information so I can use it to help categorize areas of success and areas for improvement. I tend to write down at the end of a session entry a "+/Δ" table where I catch the overall thoughts.

I have been working on the mental aspect of training using a lot of visualization. I also have begun to incorporate this mental training in my "3 minute" warm up period during practice sessions where I am shooting for "practice record", as opposed to working on some technique. I know some people do better with vocalization, but I've never been able to make it work. I do try to simulate the feeling of a good shot, but usually when I have that, I don't really remember it- a semi-fugue state, I guess.

Almost recovered from the tree falling on the house back in April- so I am hopeful I can get back to the air pistol in the basement more frequently, along with everyone's friend, dry firing. I didn't end up at the years end where I wanted to be with my goals, but I've made significant improvement, considering.

Would recommend keeping a journal/log. You get exactly no more out of shooting than you put in. Like the rest of life, really.

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Practicing Slow Fire and Rapid Fire only

Post by janrbrundin on 10/16/2017, 4:06 pm

Sorry I am late to this question of SF/RF practice.

It took me some time, but I arrived at a simple strategy for practicing and competing with all three guns and all three timings.  I noticed that after I fired a shot, the gun recoiled and returned back to 'almost' the same area on the target.  The .22 and the .45 recovered to a slightly different area, but were very close.  Sooo, I thought, why not shoot another shot while I have the arm out, sight picture and trigger managed already.

So I tested single shots, double shots, triple shots and the entire magazine at the 50 yd SF target.  I compared the groupings and the score.  The best result was with the double shots.  WOW!!

So, for SF, I committed to shooting with the short line cadence - roughly the same as "ready on the right.....ready on the firing line", shoot!  On recovery, shoot again at about the 2 sec rhythm used for RF.  I would, of course, allow a 'reset' of the gun if the recovery was not good.  But, I shot the double anyway.  I finished SF in about 3-4 minutes, well ahead of most shooters, except the very good shooters.

For TF, I shot the cadence as called by the tower talker, but I allowed a 'wind' push or a bad recovery to 'reset' and continued shooting.  I finished TF in 10 to 12 seconds.

For RF, I shot normally with the first shot in +1 sec and the fifth shot around +9 sec.  This timing strategy allowed me to finish SF and TF early.  The scores were pretty much the same as single shot SF and 20 sec TF.  RF was always better, because I had already rehearsed shooting the first shot at target turn +1 sec all day long.  I won a lot of matches in the last 20 shots by beating them in RF, as they usually got tired and slacked off a little by then.  I used this strategy for over 10 years and did well.

Just another way to skin the cat.

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Re: Training slow fire and rapid fire only

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