Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Go down

Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by Oleg G on 1/9/2018, 9:23 am

When analyzing my dry-fire training routines, I came up with a seeming contradiction, which I cannot reconcile myself. I will make three statements, which may or may not be correct:

1. There should be a single shot process for SF, TF and RF
2. In the shot process, trigger press should start when the sights (dot) are lowering into the black and the shot is released when the sights (dot) reaches the center of the bullseye. This is not to mean that the shot is snatches when one "sees" the sights in the center, but that the trigger press reaches its conclusion when the sights (dot) are lowering into the center of the bullseye.
3. The best opportunity to release the shot is during a minimum arc of movement, which typically occurs within 4 - 6 secs after the arm with the pistol is in the extended static position. This is how I interpret the guidance form the AMU book.

In my shot process, I raise the pistol above the black (to about the top edge of the target), lower it into the black (my current hold area is close to or slightly larger than the 9 ring) and then start the trigger press. It takes me between 0.75 and 1.5 secs to complete the trigger press. So, I cannot reconcile starting the trigger press when the sights enter the top of the black with taking 4 - 6 secs to have the gun settle into the minimum arc of movement.

Additionally, I anchor my mental commands to the range commands. I start raising the gun with "Ready on the left" and the pistol is lowered into the central area of the bull (or target edge) by the end of the "Ready on the firing line" command, which takes about 5 secs (give or take, depending on the cadence of the person giving the commands). Then I take a short pause and start the trigger press, which ends about 0.5 sec to 1 sec after the target turn.

With all this, I cannot figure out how to: start the trigger press when lowering the pistol; achieve 4 - 6 secs of settling into the minimal arc of movement; have a determined, yet rather fast trigger press; and "shoot the target turn" or close to it.

Please help! Smile
Best Regards,
Oleg.
avatar
Oleg G

Posts : 153
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/9/2018, 10:18 am

Sounds like you are squeezing trigger to fast. Should be finessing the shot off through continual steady squeeze. Train slow, med & fast squeezes. You will vary day to day based on many things; confidence, sleep, anxiety. 4-6 seconds is generality. You will have your own range of how long it takes to settle. Earlier is normally better than later shots.
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 2024
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by CR10X on 1/9/2018, 2:30 pm

Here is how I would describe my opinion / process / interpretation for your statements. The amount of time it takes to complete the trigger press is about the same from starting pressure till holding the same on the overtravel before resetting the trigger.  It's just the conditions that I see to start the process is slightly different in order to account for the necessary precision for shooting a 10 consistently (and within the time provided).

"1. There should be a single shot process for SF, TF and RF."

I would say not exactly, since Slow is different than Timed / Rapid.  The amount of time it takes to complete the trigger press is about the same.  But for me the set up is different. 

"2. In the shot process, trigger press should start when the sights (dot) are lowering into the black and the shot is released when the sights (dot) reaches the center of the bullseye. This is not to mean that the shot is snatches when one "sees" the sights in the center, but that the trigger press reaches its conclusion when the sights (dot) are lowering into the center of the bullseye."

I would not say it that way.  The trigger process starts during return from recoil for Timed / Rapid, and when when the wobble gets centered for Slow.  The shot is not completed when the dot reaches the center, but when the dot is approaching center (Timed / Rapid) or is a minimum wobble (Slow).  Again, amount of time it takes to complete the trigger press is about the same, its just that the starting conditions are visually different.  And I'm really not "focusing" on either the trigger press or sight picture as much as seeing the process of the dot (wobble) or sight alignment (open).  There's another post somewhere that I tried to explain this. 


"3. The best opportunity to release the shot is during a minimum arc of movement, which typically occurs within 4 - 6 secs after the arm with the pistol is in the extended static position. This is how I interpret the guidance form the AMU book."

Again, not exactly.  For Slow Fire, you need to find out what your normal minimum arc of movement looks like, not the time. The time for you to get to minimum wobble can vary some, day to day, gun to gun, etc. Recognizing when the best wobble or sight alignment is approaching or occurring is the key.  So I train on completing the shot when that condition is approaching.  Timed and Rapid are different, I'm training to complete the trigger as the dot or sight alignment is approaching / getting to the acceptable configuration, but not necessarily the minimum.  Remember, shooting a 10 at 25 yards is 4 times easier than at 50 yards.   

Hope this not too confusing.  

Like the men before me said, "Shoot the first 10 you see."  "Earlier is normally better than later."

CR

CR10X

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by Oleg G on 1/9/2018, 2:40 pm

Cecil,

Thanks a lot, your interpretation really helps. Most of your points are what I wanted to say but did not in my post. What really helps me is your view that the ENTIRE shot process for SF and sustained fire is not really the same. This helps me to reconcile my approach to training.
Lately, I have been spending a lot of time on one-shot dry fire drills and that really helps me to combat the chicken finger syndrome and holding too long. This approach also reflects very positively on my Slow Fire results.

Oleg.
avatar
Oleg G

Posts : 153
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by CR10X on 1/9/2018, 6:23 pm

I think you've gotten my point.  Parts of the the whole may be slightly different, because we see and want different levels of precision or are simply wired that way.  But the time from the commitment to the trigger based on the wobble or sight alignment to the firing is generally the same, Slow, Timed or Rapid.  

The process (when the trigger press starts) may be slightly different for Slow vs Timed / Rapid, but the amount of time that pressure / movement on the trigger is the same.  As soon as you see the acceptable movement towards the center, the trigger operation needs to be started and completed. 

Not jerked, not slower or faster, but more like the timing of an musical piece or swing at as perfect pitch, or a timing of a great golf swing. Otherwise you can get the dreaded chicken finger, milk the grip, jerk, etc. As long as the trigger pressure process, pressure curve, etc.  is the same throughout the trigger operation, we don't have as much chance of screwing up the grip, sight alignment, etc. and we can act / react consistently.    

I'm sure that Zins and others have different techniques, process, ques, etc.  Listen to them all and see what makes sense and works for you.

CR

CR10X

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by Jack H on 1/9/2018, 7:32 pm

At last!  A good explanation on the difference between "minimum arc of movement" and the "move to center" concepts.  Thank you CR.
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1521
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Shot Process, Start of Trigger Press and Minimum Arc of Movement

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum