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Alibi rules.

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dronning
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Post by Sheriff1962 9/11/2018, 8:19 pm

The way I understand , that if during timed or rapid fire I get a malfunction and have to raise my non shooting hand , I will get to shoot again and it will not cost me any points. Is this correct?

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Post by Chris Miceli 9/11/2018, 8:40 pm

you get 1 alibi per match. so the entire NMC you get 1. for the timed fire match (20 shots) you get 1 for the rapid fire match (20 shots) you get 1. 

A 900 is a Slow fire match, national match,timed fire match,rapid fire match.

You get the alibi if it legal alibi, so no touching the gun if it jams or fails to fire, didn't load the following round...

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Post by TomH_pa 9/11/2018, 9:06 pm

The only way it won't cost you points is if the 5 alibi shots you shoot are 10' & X's because you will be scored the low ten shots on the target

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Post by Chris Miceli 9/11/2018, 9:07 pm

TomH_pa wrote:The only way it won't cost you points is if the 5 alibi shots you shoot are 10' & X's because you will be scored the low ten shots on the target
if you got 5 shots off how can you have an equipment alibi ?

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Post by TomH_pa 9/11/2018, 9:12 pm

The 5 you shoot on the alibi string not the ones that caused it

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Post by dronning 9/11/2018, 9:44 pm

If you shot 9X's and the 10th shot FTF and was an approved alibi.  Then during the alibi you shoot 5 9's you now have 14 rounds on the target and you count the 10 lowest so you would end up with a 95-4X.

It can cost you points if you shoot crap on the alibi, say 2 9's & 3 6's then you would actually loose 4 points and have an 86-4X 
- Dave
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Post by Chris Miceli 9/11/2018, 9:49 pm

if during the alibi you fail to get a round off you have a miss.

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Post by CR10X 9/12/2018, 5:50 am

This has been posted before, so a search will also help.  Here is the process in a simple format, it can get very complicated if there are crossfires, etc. 

In addition to only getting one alibi per match (for timed / rapid fire, but you can get alibi for SF in NMC, but that's extremely rare since most people will take the extra time allowed rather than an alibi); there are details on scoring that the shooter needs to learn.  And yes only 5 rounds can be loaded in the magazine per the range commands, there are no "make up" shots. However, during an alibi string the competitor can complete any safe actions, including loading another magazine in an attempt to complete 5 and only 5 shots on that string.  A shooter can attempt to clear the malfunction and continue shooting if they wish, however they will forfeit the ability to get an alibi string if they have not already had an alibi during that match.  

On the process.  

During the first or second string of a Timed Fire or Rapid Fire match or stage, if a shooter experiences a malfunction, they will need to raise their non shooting hand and wait until a range official checks their problem.

If the malfunction is not the result of a shooter problem (forgetting to load the gun, safety still on, etc. etc. is a shooter problem and not eligible for alibi string) the shooter will be allowed to shoot an alibi string.

So, the shooter now has fired x number of shots out of 5 ( that number can be 0 to 4).  The shooter will either have already fired 5 shots  (first string before the one with the malfunction); or will now attempt to fire 5 shots on the second string of fire for that target.  

If on the second string of fire (not the alibi string) the shooter gets less than 5 shots off, they will still be charged with firing 5 rounds. 

If on the alibi string of fire, the shooter gets less than 5 shots off, they will be charged with 5 rounds. 

So at minimum, after the 3 strings of fire, there should be a minimum of 10 holes PLUS the number of rounds fired on the malfunction string of fire that allowed the alibi to be fired.  ( 10 + 0 to 4 or 10 to 14 holes on the target)

If there are less than 10 to 14 holes on the target, misses will be scored until the total number of scores equals 10 to 14, and then the remaining shots will be scored from lowest value upward until the required number of shots are scored.

For example:

1st string - 3 shots off, alibi is allowed.
2nd string 4 shots off (no additional alibi); scored for 5 shots.
Alibi string 4 shots off; scored for 5 shots.

Shooter fired 11 shots , however 1 was also a miss, so there are only 10 holes on the target.  The shooter will be scored for 13 shots.  Scorer will count the holes in the target and record misses to reach the required number of 13 shots.  In this case 3 misses and then score the lowest 7 of the 10 actual holes on the target.


Last edited by CR10X on 9/12/2018, 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added even more complex note for SF stage alibi for NMC.)

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Post by james r chapman 9/12/2018, 6:16 am

And then, totally flustered, you happen to xfire an 8 in your neighbors 100-10x target...
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Post by cdrt 9/12/2018, 7:20 am

Chris Miceli wrote:you get 1 alibi per match. so the entire NMC you get 1. for the timed fire match (20 shots) you get 1 for the rapid fire match (20 shots) you get 1. 

A 900 is a Slow fire match, national match,timed fire match,rapid fire match.

You get the alibi if it legal alibi, so no touching the gun if it jams or fails to fire, didn't load the following round...
You actually get two refires (alibis) in the National Match Course, even though I have never see it happen.  See (c) below:
9.14 Refiring -
(a) No competitor will fire more than one score for the same award except as provided in the program or in accordance with Rule 14.10.
(b) In single stage matches composed of several strings of fire only one refire per match will be allowed.
(c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages.
(d) Refires of slow fire refires are to be fired immediately after the relay in which the refire occurred.
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Post by james r chapman 9/12/2018, 7:31 am

C) ...interesting...
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Post by dronning 9/12/2018, 8:32 am

Do you have to shoot an alibi you called for?

Lets say you called for an alibi and it was allowed because 5th round didn't feed on the 1st string, then it happened again on the 2nd string (of course no additional alibi allowed).  Can you decide not to shoot the Alibi you asked for on the first string, fearing that you may have a malfunction during the Alibi, making your score worse?
- Dave

This is where a backup gun comes in handy.
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Post by james r chapman 9/12/2018, 8:50 am

dronning wrote:Do you have to shoot an alibi you called for?

Lets say you called for an alibi and it was allowed because 5th round didn't feed on the 1st string, then it happened again on the 2nd string (of course no additional alibi allowed).  Can you decide not to shoot the Alibi you asked for on the first string, fearing that you may have a malfunction during the Alibi, making your score worse?
- Dave

This is where a backup gun comes in handy.

I believe all unfired rounds of the original unfired alibi would be declared lost. -50 points..., But, maybe not!
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Post by cdrt 9/12/2018, 9:41 am

dronning wrote:Do you have to shoot an alibi you called for?

Lets say you called for an alibi and it was allowed because 5th round didn't feed on the 1st string, then it happened again on the 2nd string (of course no additional alibi allowed).  Can you decide not to shoot the Alibi you asked for on the first string, fearing that you may have a malfunction during the Alibi, making your score worse?
- Dave

This is where a backup gun comes in handy.
I would allow you to not shoot the alibi and would not penalize you the unfired rounds.  It only makes sense that you might change your mind if you are having a serious gun problem.
You would also have the option of declaring a defective pistol and change to your backup gun for the alibi string.
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Post by CR10X 9/12/2018, 11:24 am

Why not take the alibi? It depends on the number of shots you get off.  

In the case of not shooting and getting off 4 + 4 shots, you will still be scored for firing 10 shots (2 five shot strings) so 2 misses.

Taking the alibi and having a failure again would be 4 + 4 + 4 shots, but charged with 14 for score.  So 14 for score - 12 actually on target still has 2 misses.

I'd have to ask a referee.  The shooter has already asked and given an alibi string.  So does not shooting it negate the entire process?  Or does the shooter get charged with the 5 shot alibi string anyway?   I know that if the shooter attempted to fire the alibi string and gets no shots off, he will be charged with the 5 shots anyway.

Just remember, the rules are not exactly meant to be fair but also to prevent anyone from taking advantage of a situation, such as a misfire, crossfire, etc.

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Post by dronning 9/12/2018, 1:48 pm

cdrt wrote:
dronning wrote:Do you have to shoot an alibi you called for?

Lets say you called for an alibi and it was allowed because 5th round didn't feed on the 1st string, then it happened again on the 2nd string (of course no additional alibi allowed).  Can you decide not to shoot the Alibi you asked for on the first string, fearing that you may have a malfunction during the Alibi, making your score worse?
- Dave

This is where a backup gun comes in handy.
I would allow you to not shoot the alibi and would not penalize you the unfired rounds.  It only makes sense that you might change your mind if you are having a serious gun problem.
You would also have the option of declaring a defective pistol and change to your backup gun for the alibi string.
Yes my concern would be what if the gun failed on the 2nd round of the alibi - it would be 4 misses or that I was rattled enough to loose confidence in the gun and shoot poorly.

+1 on the backup
- Dave
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Post by CR10X 9/12/2018, 2:36 pm

Well, if you've had a malfunction on the first and second string of fire, you've probably got bigger or different problem than figuring out if you want to shoot the alibi string or not.  And I don't think anything "fundamental" is going to help if you're already that many points down.  Smile   
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Post by chopper 9/14/2018, 8:16 pm

Today my practice partner and I were shooting a 900 for practice with 22s, he pounded the Xs and 10s. I did 814 and he 847. I like to similate match conditions and I had an RF Alibi rules.  20180910alibi and got 4 shots off in the 2nd string showing 86, so I loaded 5 and shot the alibi and nailed 3Xs and 2 more 10s for a 96.

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