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Range Alibi?

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Range Alibi? Empty Range Alibi?

Post by Jon Math on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:42 pm

If you take a range alibi and then suffer a mechanical alibi in the same match is that a DSQ? I guess I’m asking who is a range alibi charged to?  It’s not my fault the target does not turn or a competitor starts shooting early etc—is it?
Jon Math
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Post by Olde Pilot on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:15 pm

NO

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Post by CR10X on Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:51 am

When you say "..mechanical alibi.." what do you mean?  From your second sentence, you seem to mean an "interruption of fire" under rule 9.12 or in typical usage "Range Alibi"?  However, from your second sentence, you also say "a competitor starts shooting early" which is generally not an "interruption of fire", unless the RO creates that condition by stopping the string of fire. 

If so, then 9.14 Refiring; section (e) " Refires as a result of interruption of fire (Rule 9.12) do not apply to this rule." would be applicable.  These refires do not count as refires by a competitor. 

If a competitor starts shooting early, that is not your fault and is not a range alibi, unless the RO stops the match in mid string with "Cease Fire".  Typically, (unless there is some safety issue, like negligent discharge, damage, injury, etc.) the string continues and the firing competitor should be penalized with the highest scoring shot(s) as miss(es) (on stationary targets) but that should not be an interruption of fire unless some action is taken by RO (for safety reasons, etc.).  (Shots fired before the command to load, discharge on loading, etc. are an entirely different set of problems and not an "interruption of fire" anyway, since the time for the string has not begun.)  

If the RO stops the match during a timed portion; then 9.12 applies. See 9.12 to learn your options under the various "interruption of fire" scenarios. 

Also, refires under 14.10 do not count as this is a "scoring procedure" and not the fault of the competitor.  So you can have a alibi and refire string on a refire target being shot for score under excessive hits (14.10).

The rule book is your friend, get to know it well.  It will save you points. 

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Jon Math on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:21 am

On a range that does not have turning targets and the shooters start with a buzzer in a rapid fire string the a shooter started firing on the Command “Ready on the firing line”  rather than at the buzzer.  In my shot process my sights are not settled at the start of that command, so I’m placed at a disadvantage waiting for a buzzer that never sounds or is never heard over the din of the rest of the line shooting.   Should that string have been stopped, or is it my place to bench my pistol unfired and ask for an alibi, or is it just tough luck and start shooting when everyone else does?
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Post by zanemoseley on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:54 am

That's why I don't like shooting with buzzers or whistles, its kind of the wild west, people seem to just start shooting whenever. I much prefer turning targets. I've never seen someone refuse to shoot and ask for an alibi, they just start shooting if someone starts early and stops on the buzzer. It is annoying.

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Post by Jon Math on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:58 am

zanemoseley wrote:That's why I don't like shooting with buzzers or whistles, its kind of the wild west, people seem to just start shooting whenever. I much prefer turning targets. I've never seen someone refuse to shoot and ask for an alibi, they just start shooting if someone starts early and stops on the buzzer. It is annoying.

Wild west that is about right!  It's like starting a race on "get set"  instead of "go".  Guess it's a grin and bear it situation then.  Thanks.
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Post by CR10X on Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 am

Simply raise hand and say the commands were not heard.    9.12 a. (6) Some incident involving a Range Officer or competitor on the firing line.  

In my opinion, by not firing a single shot and point out the commands were not heard and the incident interfered with the competitor's string of fire, I would allow the competitor to fire both his normal strings of fire (assuming TF / RF match) and not call it a refire string.  (Based on the fact the competitor was so disturbed as to not even attempt to fire the string.)

(This happens a lot with stationary target on indoor ranges.  I, and it seems most people, just continue on and shoot through it.  I consider it a training opportunity and really don't care that much about it.  My timing should be mostly internal anyway.) 

And the option if the the RO says it would be a alibi and refire rather than the normal string of fire:

16.2 Protests - A competitor may formally protest: (a) Any injustice which is felt has been done except the evaluation of a target, which may be challenged as outlined in Rule 16.1.

Sometimes you get what you want, sometimes you just learn from it. 

CR

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Post by Jon Math on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:39 am

I have always done just that, shoot when everyone else starts.  The other night someone started at the beginning  of the “ready on the line” command and I frankly was baulked by it.  I shot anyway but by the time I got settled and started shooting I ended up running out of time and leaving one in the pistol.  Maybe I should have shot it off after the buzzer;  if the RO does not want to control the  start why should the end be regulated.  
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Post by CR10X on Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:10 pm

Appropriately scoring targets with early shots as removal of highest scoring shot(s) should be sufficient incentive. 

14.5 Early or Late Shots - When a shot is fired early or late, that is, before or after the signal to commence or cease fire, when the required number of hits are visible on the face of the target, the value of the highest hit will be scored a miss. When fewer than the required number of hits are visible on the target, the competitor will be scored a miss for each shot not on the target, and those visible on the target will be scored in the normal manner. 

14.6 All Shots Count - All shots fired by the competitor after position has been taken at the firing point will be counted, even if the pistol is accidentally discharged. 

14.7 Hits on Wrong Target or Bullseye - Hits on the wrong target or bullseye are scored as misses. A wrong target is defined as a target other than that: 
    (a) Assigned to the firing point upon which the competitor is squadded (assigned). 
    (b) Intended to be used for the match, stage and distance in that event.

 If targets are not being scored appropriately - 

16.2 Protests - A competitor may formally protest:
(b) The conditions under which another competitor has been permitted to fire.

Sometimes, in order for someone to learn, someone else has to be the teacher.  It it the responsibility of both parties to handle the opportunity appropriately.


Last edited by CR10X on Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Jon Math on Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:33 pm

Thank you!

I’ve never seen a point removed, or a score protested (in this venue at least)--I hate to play "lawyer ball" but once it starts effecting my shooting I guess it’s time.  I consider the line commands a safety issue as well as a way to control a match.  If people start disregarding them what will be next?  
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