I’m at my wits end..lead shaving

First topic message reminder :



Here is some photos of what I’m getting!  With the bullet seated you can hopefully see that thin shaved lead around the case mouth.  I’ve also included a empty case with amount of flare I’m using.  I don’t get this all the time but maybe 10 out of 100.  It’s making me insane!!!  The bad thing about it is if I don’t wipe it off it creates a chambering issue.  I also seem to get it with non coated bullets as well raw lead that is.  I’ve gone as far as belling lots more to the point that if I were to try and resize a belled case it would not go into the sizing die if I tried to resize it.  These are all Winchester cases.

What am I doing wrong?  The lead shaving will wipe off but I’d really like to not have to wipe every loaded round after the fact.  Jhp no issues what so ever!

all dies cleaned etc.

Help me keep whatever hair I have left!

Thanks everyone 

Joe

Dan Miller on FB mentioned using a 45 colt die to size.  I will say I like that idea as the Dillon sizing die is no joke and sizes the daylights out of brass.  Wish it was like rifle where I could back out the die and not size so much.  Carbide sizer ring

DA/SA wrote:It looks like the projectile is tipping and not seating straight as it is being pressed in causing one side to shave on the case mouth.

What are you using for a seating die?

I think belling too much is causing this. Will know in a few days

Dr.Don wrote:Common sense would tell us that the funnel created by belling the case cannot shave the bullet edge.  So we wonder if the bell is really still there during the seating action.  That's why the questions are circling around the issue of whether the die is really compressing this bell before or during seating.  Hence the questions about die internal diameter, whether there is a crimping section in the die that is in play, etc.

Many of us have moved away from belling and use a two-step expander.  I make my own, but Photoescape has made them available to all of us now.

Dr. Don,
I actually observed when edge between starting of the bell and unexpanded portion of the case was shaving bottom part of the bullet.  That is especially pronounced when bullet is slightly tilted to one side.  Two step expander doesn't remedy the issue completely, as edge between expanded and unexpanded portion of the case is always there.  However the fact that bullet is getting inserted and seated concentrically to the case vertical axial greatly diminishes shaving.  It is rather becomes slight compression of the bullet base then shaving.  The ideal is when depth of case expansion created by two step expander is close or equal to the bullet seating depth!  That is the premise behind of my HBWC and DEWC funnels. 

AP

Size with a .45 Colt, or try unsized primed cases.

PhotoEscape wrote:

Dr.Don wrote:Common sense would tell us that the funnel created by belling the case cannot shave the bullet edge.  So we wonder if the bell is really still there during the seating action.  That's why the questions are circling around the issue of whether the die is really compressing this bell before or during seating.  Hence the questions about die internal diameter, whether there is a crimping section in the die that is in play, etc.

Many of us have moved away from belling and use a two-step expander.  I make my own, but Photoescape has made them available to all of us now.

Dr. Don,
I actually observed when edge between starting of the bell and unexpanded portion of the case was shaving bottom part of the bullet.  That is especially pronounced when bullet is slightly tilted to one side.  Two step expander doesn't remedy the issue completely, as edge between expanded and unexpanded portion of the case is always there.  However the fact that bullet is getting inserted and seated concentrically to the case vertical axial greatly diminishes shaving.  It is rather becomes slight compression of the bullet base then shaving.  The ideal is when depth of case expansion created by two step expander is close or equal to the bullet seating depth!  That is the premise behind of my HBWC and DEWC funnels. 

AP

Yes!  The last sentence is exactly what I’m thinking. My DAA funnel doesn’t go deep enough

Looking now like more time is needed to set  the bullets into the case  straighter  , by hand. 
I know if i set a bullet into the case mouth crooked and then raise the ram, bad things can happen. 

Or more bell/flare?  The taper on my old  45 acp Dillon powder funnel  can easly apply to much.

OK, I surrender.  The die isn't doing it, and Photoescape has seen the bell transition area scrape lead.  To me that would mean the basic case expansion is insufficient, i.e. bigger expander needed (or less sizing in that area of the case).

I'm going to back off here; you're getting lots of good advice and insights.  I'm sure you'll get it resoved.

A shoulder seating insert for your Dillon seating die will solve the issue by pressing the projectile into the case straight.

You can also get away with minimum belling of the case, or with stepped type expanders, pretty much no belling.

Not to mention switching to different LSWC's they still seat to the same shoulder height



You would think that the standard generic LSWC seating stems would do that as well, but not with my experience with the same issue.

Does the Dillon Crimp Die have any way of pressing on the nose of the bullet?  My Redding is hollow, but if you had a die with a "shelf" in it which engaged the bullet, you would be pressing on the bullet while crimping.

Another test would be to seat a bullet in a dummy case and then pull the bullet to see if the base had shaved off lead prior to the crimp stage.

Tried a different, thinner brass?

My Dillon crimp is hollow. I seat with a shoulder seating die. Currently I still use a dillon funnel to expand but I would like a stepped funnel. 

My question is how do the rounds shoot?

My Dillon crimp is hollow.  I do use the insert on the seating die that seats off the shoulder.  The Ammo shoots great if I remember to wipe off the lead shaving.  If I miss it it will cause a jam or failure to chamber completely

Aprilian wrote:Does the Dillon Crimp Die have any way of pressing on the nose of the bullet?  My Redding is hollow, but if you had a die with a "shelf" in it which engaged the bullet, you would be pressing on the bullet while crimping.

Another test would be to seat a bullet in a dummy case and then pull the bullet to see if the base had shaved off lead prior to the crimp stage.

Tried a different, thinner brass?

I pulled a few and the base of the bullet is fine.  The shaving is coming off the top driving band only on one side.

When I get my new area set up I’m gonna experiment with less bell.  I’m convinced the bullet is getting a little cocked to one side and scraping the top driving band

lablover wrote:

I pulled a few and the base of the bullet is fine.  The shaving is coming off the top driving band only on one side.

I don't know Dillon Presses, but on my single press a lot of the one sided shaving was coming from the shell holder not being in perfect alignment with the die.   I would see it a s a slight movement of the case base as the ram went up.  Might you have something worn on your press which is now holding the case and die out of alignment?  One test might be to mark a line on one side of the case and load a batch with that line always being placed in the same position relative to your shell plate.   Then if all the shavings are in the same position relative to your mark the problem likely has an alignment component.

So for the hell of it I chamfered a dozen cases or so and backed the bell off a bit.  Not a single bullet shaved!  I’ll try again without chamfering to see if backing off the bell was the trick.  Is Winchester 
Brass thick or something?  Tried to measure and looks like wall thickness was 11 thou.  Maybe it’s the damn brass after all. I hope not, I have several thousand...what would be a thinner brass?

I’m gonna get this!

Brass is good, size it larger,

james r chapman wrote:Brass is good, size it larger,

45 colt die should be here tomorrow

I suggest to be very careful with chamfering mouth of the cases, Joe.  You are asking for trouble with crimping, and possible case splitting prematurely.  That's my opinion.  Also, Winchester is not as wall-thick as i.e. S&B or Star Line, or even Remington.  So that would only aggravate potential issues.

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:I suggest to be very careful with chamfering mouth of the cases, Joe.  You are asking for trouble with crimping, and possible case splitting prematurely.  That's my opinion.  Also, Winchester is not as wall-thick as i.e. S&B or Star Line, or even Remington.  So that would only aggravate potential issues.

AP

Good to know.  Thank you

I have the same issue using pretty much the same equipment (shoulder seater) but as I am not a competition shooter I have learned to live with it. I do wipe my loaded rounds religiously and inspect them. However, out of 4 different .45 auto handguns i rarely have a FTF & never a FTE. I know that my issue is caused by not getting the bullet set exactly square in the slightly belled case and sometimes as I raise the case & bullet the bullet seems to tilt just before seating.

Gary Wells wrote:I have the same issue using pretty much the same equipment (shoulder seater) but as I am not a competition shooter I have learned to live with it. I do wipe my loaded rounds religiously and inspect them. However, out of 4 different .45 auto handguns i rarely have a FTF & never a FTE. I know that my issue is caused by not getting the bullet set exactly square in the slightly belled case and sometimes as I raise the case & bullet the bullet seems to tilt just before seating.

I think after I try the 45 colt sizer..if it still continues I’ll learn to live with it.

UPDATE:

I had the DAA powder funnel to eliminate lead shaving and it didn’t work.  Photoescape offered for me to try his powder funnel at no charge to see if it would eliminate my problem...guess what, It did!  His funnel is not made of stainless like the DAA is .  After his explanation why stainless can sometimes be a problem it made sense. The stainless can gall the brass.  Can’t even begin to say how excited I am.  I also tried in combination with his powder funnel using the 45 colt sizing die..yea, that made a difference as well.  The Dillon carbide sizes way too much!  The lee carbide does not size 45 acp as much.  The combination of the two is awesome.

Thanks to Photoescape for the chance to try it.  I’ll be contacting you to send you payment.  And thanks to Everyone else who recommended the colt die.

Happy camper!  Now off to the next problem...haha. Not reload related 

Joe

Greetings,

You have changed two variables. New, larger, sizing die and a powder funnel.

Difficult to say which one made the improvement. Or, perhaps, both made the difference.

However, if it is now working, great. No need to ponder what made it better.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

You have changed two variables. New, larger, sizing die and a powder funnel.

Difficult to say which one made the improvement. Or, perhaps, both made the difference.

However, if it is now working, great. No need to ponder what made it better.

Cheers,

Dave

No, I didn’t..I tried the new powder funnel first, then when I realized it was working fine and I could be happy I went ahead and tried it with the 45 colt die..still worked.  I’ll have to re read my post but I thought I mentioned that?  But like you said, no need to ponder it anymore.  I just wanted to post all that follow up in case someone else was having the issue. 

Just my .02 on sizing dies,
Use the 45 colt die for Lead bullets and use the 45acp die for Jacketed bullets.
Jacketed bullets, when used with a 45 colt die, can be pushed back in the case after crimping.
Hope this helps,
Wes