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Post by Al W. on 12/11/2019, 10:28 pm

I picked up a SA RO a little while ago to shoot some Bullseye.
Previously the only pistols I've shot in matches have been 38 sp and 22lr.
i've been working up a load for the RO.
Kept the factory spring, its all stock.
I settled on 185 JHP from Zero , with CCI primers and 3.7 gr of BE.
My question is this.
Although I see folks shooting charges as low as 3.5 BE and I don't consider the RO to be set up overly "tight", it 
doesn't hold the slide open on last round with my 3.7 consistently . I guess it holds back about half the time .
So clearly not a big deal.
If I shoot factory ammo , which in my case is  Armscor , the slide is open at the end of every magazine.
The charge in the Armscor is at minimum 5.2 of something , so I don't suppose its rocket science trying to figure why its able 
to get that mundane task done.
What I want to understand is , is it worth going to a lighter recoil spring to get the rail to lock back on last round or not.
Don't know the exact stock spring weight although I have read that its a #15.
Also note that I only have about 550 rounds through this gun.
I'm not rushing to change it , just gathering some information from those more experienced than I.
Thanks !
Al W.
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Post by farmboy on 12/11/2019, 10:53 pm

The lighter loads people are referencing are going to be shot in guns with lighter recoil springs.
Factory spring most likely 16 but might be 15.  May want to drop down to a 12lb recoil spring so you can  use the lower charge weights and still have full function.  Lower charges will allow you to manage recoil better during sustained fire.
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Post by LenV on 12/11/2019, 11:07 pm

I don't know anyone that recommends loads below 4.2 gr BE for a Jacketed bullet. I guess it is working for you but I only go lighter then 4.2 with lead bullets. A cold day, light load, light spring and jacketed bullet is the perfect combination for disaster. Just my .02

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Post by GlennMcD on 12/12/2019, 12:20 am

Len - could you please explain what could happen in the situation you outlined above?

And why can lead bullets be loaded with a lighter charge than a jacketed bullet?

Thanks

Glenn

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Post by james r chapman on 12/12/2019, 4:46 am

New to 45 ACP 8d46fa10
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Post by farmboy on 12/12/2019, 5:54 am

LenV wrote:I don't know anyone that recommends loads below 4.2 gr BE for a Jacketed bullet. I guess it is working for you but I only go lighter then 4.2 with lead bullets. A cold day, light load, light spring and jacketed bullet is the perfect combination for disaster. Just my .02

Len
Oh crap - I totally glazed over the fact that he was talking about jacketed. My bad - Thanks for pointing this out an correcting my mistake. My answer applied to lead not jacketed
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Post by Doug Tiedt on 12/12/2019, 8:38 am

LenV wrote:I don't know anyone that recommends loads below 4.2 gr BE for a Jacketed bullet. I guess it is working for you but I only go lighter then 4.2 with lead bullets. A cold day, light load, light spring and jacketed bullet is the perfect combination for disaster. Just my .02

Len

+1.   As a new reloader, I was confused by my results vs. the recommendations and pet loads given on this forum.  I later figured out those recommendations were for lead bullets and I was using JHPs like you.  For reliable cycling, my gun needs 4.4 gr of BE with 185 JHPs from Zero.

You might consider buying yourself a box or two of quality match ammo (I like ASYM, there are plenty of others) for comparison purposes?  ASYM is ridiculously accurate in my gun, YMMV.  I recently bought a pound of VV N310 and look forward to matching their recipe and hope for similar results.

Doug


Last edited by Doug Tiedt on 12/12/2019, 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 12/12/2019, 8:54 am

I have witnessed the jacket separating and staying in the bore....the next round thru my Freedom Arms 32 h&r cost me about $400.00 for a new barrel.
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Post by BE Mike on 12/12/2019, 9:47 am

Jacket bullets have more friction going down the barrel than lead bullets, hence the greater powder charge required for jacketed bullets. Quality lead bullets will shoot well at 25 yards and are less expensive and some pistols shoot extremely well at the long line with lead bullets. If you are going to stick with the Zero 185 gr. jacketed hollow point bullets, I suggest you do as LenV suggests and increase your powder charge so you get reliable functioning and accuracy at 50 yards. If you want to save some money, you might want to consider switching over to lead bullets even if only for training.


Last edited by BE Mike on 12/12/2019, 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by zanemoseley on 12/12/2019, 10:39 am

I agree, use lead. Cheaper, can be loaded for less recoil than JHP typically and wears the barrel less. The only real reason for JHP is if its required for a match or you're a top level shooter trying to squeeze that extra 1/4" of accuracy at 50 yards. Many HM shooters still use lead. If you don't want bare lead go with Hitek coated bullets, Mason Talbert just hit HM using Hitek coated 200 grain H&G 68 profile bullets, with irons to beat it all.

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Post by LenV on 12/12/2019, 12:28 pm

GlennMcD wrote:Len - could you please explain what could happen in the situation you outlined above?

And why can lead bullets be loaded with a lighter charge than a jacketed bullet?

Thanks

Glenn
Glenn, I think all of your questions were answered above but here is a quick summary.
  1. Jacketed bullets have more drag then lead bullets.
  2. Lead bullets capture more of the discharged gases and keep moving forward (simplified version)
  3. Under charged jacketed bullets can stick in the barrel. (squib)
  4. Squib rounds cost points and are a PIA but usually safe
  5. With a light recoil spring it is possible for your 1911 to cycle. Cycling with a squib in the barrel is a receipt for disaster.
  6. Pulling the trigger on a 1911 with a bullet already in the barrel can have several consequences.
    1. Nothing. Bullet pushes the other bullet out while clearing the barrel. Both bullets barely clear barrel.
    2. Bad. Pressure builds in barrel and bulges barrel. recoil is nearly double and you probably drop the pistol.
    3. Really bad. Pressure builds in barrel splitting barrel and discharges gases back into your arm and face. You drop pistol.
    4. Disaster. Explosive pressure builds in chamber and sends pistol parts everywhere. Hammer hits you between the eyes.. Gun dies.
New to 45 ACP Maxresdefault
New to 45 ACP 6f26719746866c2689c3626785bc269a--glock-image


Last edited by LenV on 12/12/2019, 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Less graphic, another picture)
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Post by James Hensler on 12/12/2019, 12:42 pm

I use 4.5 grains of N310 for the long line and 3.8 to 4.0 on the short line. 
Zero 185 JHP
Winchester brass
Federal primers
1.210 
.463

14lbs spring
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Post by zanemoseley on 12/12/2019, 1:00 pm

You use a .463" crimp on JHP? I though JHP were crimped very light like .469-.470". I crimp my lead to .463" though.

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Post by James Hensler on 12/12/2019, 2:03 pm

Shoot that’s right I had to go look at my notes! .468
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Post by GlennMcD on 12/12/2019, 6:05 pm

Len - thanks very much for the explanation. I haven't seen this explained in reloading manuals. Much appreciated! - Glenn

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Post by Al W. on 12/12/2019, 9:31 pm

Thanks for the comments.
I'm shooting the JHP 185 gr this evening and 90% of the time the slide holds open.
Think the gun is breaking in. 
This is with a charge of 3.7 of BE .
My crimp is moderate , enough drop test the round.
I like the light charge. I actually was getting better results with 3.5gr, but then I was ending up with the discharged case lodged in the ejection port.
Not a good look.
Lead is an option, I shoot lead in my 38's , very positive results.
The SARO is doing its job.
I'm not having any trouble cycling the gun, just this hold open thing.
I shoot Zero. So its free shipping at 1000 , no worries. I'll get some lead.
Hell if I'm shooting lead I might be able to drop the charge to 3.5 gr , which is Jake with me.
Thanks to all....
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Post by zanemoseley on 12/12/2019, 10:06 pm

Look at Magnus lead bullets too, some of the best out there and the owner Terry is a long time HM I shoot matches with. If needed he can suggest loads for his bullets and lots of people here shoot them so you can ask for load info here. Magnus also sells rebranded Zero jacketed bullets so you can get your jacketed and lead in one place, mention you're a forum member and he may give you a discount.

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Post by messenger on 12/13/2019, 9:28 am

Al W. wrote:Thanks for the comments.
I'm shooting the JHP 185 gr this evening and 90% of the time the slide holds open.
Think the gun is breaking in. 
This is with a charge of 3.7 of BE .
My crimp is moderate , enough drop test the round.
I like the light charge. I actually was getting better results with 3.5gr, but then I was ending up with the discharged case lodged in the ejection port.
Not a good look.
Lead is an option, I shoot lead in my 38's , very positive results.
The SARO is doing its job.
I'm not having any trouble cycling the gun, just this hold open thing.
I shoot Zero. So its free shipping at 1000 , no worries. I'll get some lead.
Hell if I'm shooting lead I might be able to drop the charge to 3.5 gr , which is Jake with me.
Thanks to all....

For 185gr JHP 3.7gr of Bullseye is incredibly light. 4.5gr Bullseye is an average load. 3.7gr Bullseye is even a little light for lead. I run 3.9 - 4.0gr Bullseye for 185 LSWCHP's.

Bill
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Post by Al W. on 12/13/2019, 10:35 am


For 185gr JHP 3.7gr of Bullseye is incredibly light. 4.5gr Bullseye is an average load. 3.7gr Bullseye is even a little light for lead. I run 3.9 - 4.0gr Bullseye for 185 LSWCHP's.

Bill
I see your in NC Bill.
Where about?
I'm moving down to Weaverville in a few months.
Joined the ARPC , been shooting down there some.
I ordered some lead from Zero, so I'm good to go.
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Post by Al W. on 12/13/2019, 6:46 pm

At 3.7 BE with the JHP 185 gr., there's not a hint of it being a squib.
Nothing like that .
Pretty sure that 3.5 was a starting charge in one of my data books.
Anyway 3.7 operates the gun.
The wisdom is that accuracy increases toward the top of the charge range.
But, I'm interested in limiting report and concussion .
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Post by messenger on 12/13/2019, 8:09 pm

Al W. wrote:

For 185gr JHP 3.7gr of Bullseye is incredibly light. 4.5gr Bullseye is an average load. 3.7gr Bullseye is even a little light for lead. I run 3.9 - 4.0gr Bullseye for 185 LSWCHP's.

Bill
I see your in NC Bill.
Where about?
I'm moving down to Weaverville in a few months.
Joined the ARPC , been shooting down there some.
I ordered some lead from Zero, so I'm good to go.

I am in Kernersville. in between Winston and Greensboro. I shoot matches in Haw River, Creedmore, And Charlotte.

Bill
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Post by Al W. on 12/13/2019, 8:36 pm

messenger wrote:
I am in Kernersville. in between Winston and Greensboro. I shoot matches in Haw River, Creedmore, And Charlotte.

Bill
Your about 3 hrs east.
Still proximate as NC goes.
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Post by 45ACP223 on 12/13/2019, 11:41 pm


For 185gr JHP 3.7gr of Bullseye is incredibly light. 4.5gr Bullseye is an average load. 3.7gr Bullseye is even a little light for lead. I run 3.9 - 4.0gr Bullseye for 185 LSWCHP's.

Bill

I ran 3.4-3.6 BE for years with Star 185 SWC's.  I used a frame mounted red dot at the time, not slide mounted.   After switching to a slide mounted red dot I used 3.8-4.0gr BE.
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Post by Founder on 12/14/2019, 12:43 am

There is WAY TOO MUCH incorrect information in this thread.

3.5gr of Bullseye was a VERY common load under lead bullets per Pistol Shooters Treasury going back over 70 years.

Even with jacketed bullets, that's NEVER going to be a squib. EVER.

While I like 4.0gr of BE for 185gr jhps, There is nothing wrong with the OP's load. It might not be your load, but jacket separation and barrel obstruction are ABSOLUTELY NOT going to occur with the load he was asking about.

It would have been more helpful to mention what your 185jhp load is instead of the supposition that we received.
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Post by Jon Eulette on 12/14/2019, 1:43 am

Last Feb at Desert Mid Winters in Phoenix, I shot 843 service pistol 900 with borrowed pistol using 3.8 BE and 230 JRN bullets. That's 93.6 average. Had a 99-7 on one of my short line targets. Jacketed can run slow but will shoot tighter groups running faster like Len's 4.2 load.
Always test your ammo! If you get a squib because you weren't running them fast enough....big deal. Knock it out of the barrel with a squib rod and use more powder.
As with any ammunition you load, shoot a shot and call the shot. Scope it and confirm the shot. Its the only way you know if your ammo is any good at all.
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