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Post by Al W. on 12/11/2019, 10:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I picked up a SA RO a little while ago to shoot some Bullseye.
Previously the only pistols I've shot in matches have been 38 sp and 22lr.
i've been working up a load for the RO.
Kept the factory spring, its all stock.
I settled on 185 JHP from Zero , with CCI primers and 3.7 gr of BE.
My question is this.
Although I see folks shooting charges as low as 3.5 BE and I don't consider the RO to be set up overly "tight", it 
doesn't hold the slide open on last round with my 3.7 consistently . I guess it holds back about half the time .
So clearly not a big deal.
If I shoot factory ammo , which in my case is  Armscor , the slide is open at the end of every magazine.
The charge in the Armscor is at minimum 5.2 of something , so I don't suppose its rocket science trying to figure why its able 
to get that mundane task done.
What I want to understand is , is it worth going to a lighter recoil spring to get the rail to lock back on last round or not.
Don't know the exact stock spring weight although I have read that its a #15.
Also note that I only have about 550 rounds through this gun.
I'm not rushing to change it , just gathering some information from those more experienced than I.
Thanks !
Al W.
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Post by tovaert on 12/14/2019, 6:50 am

I've loaded Hornady 185gr XTPs with Alliant e^3 powder. It's supposed to be environmentally stable (cannot attest to this yet), very clean burning (it is), and it's not too expensive (~$20/lb in 8lb jug). 3.8 gr gets me about 650 fps MV and that load is (Ransom) accurate for an older Colt pre-70s NM with the lightened slide, and a 12# spring. 4.0 gr pushes it up to 740 fps. I also have an STI Trojan (rail/Burris FF3 red dot) and with an 8# spring, I get somewhat faster MVs (e.g., 4.0 gr: 780 fps) with the STI. I like the lower recoil at the lower MVs, but I'm concerned that too slow amplifies the errors from my shaky hold?

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Post by Al W. on 12/14/2019, 10:43 am

Founder wrote:There is WAY TOO MUCH incorrect information in this thread.

3.5gr of Bullseye was a VERY common load under lead bullets per Pistol Shooters Treasury going back over 70 years.

Even with jacketed bullets, that's NEVER going to be a squib. EVER.

While I like 4.0gr of BE for 185gr jhps, There is nothing wrong with the OP's load. It might not be your load, but jacket separation and barrel obstruction are ABSOLUTELY NOT going to occur with the load he was asking about.

It would have been more helpful to mention what your 185jhp load is instead of the supposition that we received.
Thanks for the corroboration .
Luckily , I know at least a little bit about loading and running a gun, so I wasn't deflected by the nay sayers.
3.5 -3.7 ain't squiby ! Lets put that myth to rest. In fact , I just ran off another 100 of the 3.7BE under 185gr JHP this morning for my shooting tomorrow.
I've run about 500 rounds of this load through this SARO in the last couple of weeks. Lotsa dead targets , no harm done to me or the gun;)
And as the recoil spring is breaking in its starting to hold back too.
We have a ransom rest at my range. I might be the only guy that uses it , but when I have a weekday morning free and I've gotten some of this SWHP in lead from Zero , I'll make up a few of each for fun. 
I have no doubt that the lead will run better with the light load , lead has lubricity that the copper jacket does not. Those jackets are pretty darn thin though, they barrel conform even with a light charge.
Al W.
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Post by messenger on 12/14/2019, 3:00 pm

Founder wrote:There is WAY TOO MUCH incorrect information in this thread.

3.5gr of Bullseye was a VERY common load under lead bullets per Pistol Shooters Treasury going back over 70 years.

Even with jacketed bullets, that's NEVER going to be a squib. EVER.

While I like 4.0gr of BE for 185gr jhps, There is nothing wrong with the OP's load. It might not be your load, but jacket separation and barrel obstruction are ABSOLUTELY NOT going to occur with the load he was asking about.

It would have been more helpful to mention what your 185jhp load is instead of the supposition that we received.

I apologize if I insulted or upset anyone. I guess I am at fault for not asking whether the red dot was frame or slide mounted. My bad. I never insinuated Al W's load was a squib load. All my wad guns are slide mounts so that is the way I read things. Next time I will ask more questions before I respond with my opinion. By the way I like 4.5gr Titegroup over Zero JHP and 4.6gr WST over Zero LSWCHP.

Bill
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Post by LenV on 12/14/2019, 3:58 pm

I wrote a long reply. Posted it then deleted it to avoid controversy. I do want to say that I have had squibs in a 45 with 3.8 gr BE and FMJ SWC 185 gr bullets. It is personal experience that makes me urge re-loaders to use caution when going below common use loads. A lead load using 3.5gr of BE is a common load. Using 3.5gr for a jacketed bullet is not. I did mention that if 3.7 was working for him (OP) then that was great.

Len
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Post by Jon Eulette on 12/14/2019, 4:04 pm

I will add it's encouraging to see everyone acting like an adult. This forum personally has provided the best friends I could have ever met and know.
I appreciate the efforts people make to keep the peace and make amends.
Jon
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Post by Al W. on 12/14/2019, 5:26 pm

LenV wrote:I wrote a long reply. Posted it then deleted it to avoid controversy. I do want to say that I have had squibs in a 45 with 3.8 gr BE and FMJ SWC 185 gr bullets. It is personal experience that makes me urge re-loaders to use caution when going below common use loads. A lead load using 3.5gr of BE is a common load. Using 3.5gr for a jacketed bullet is not. I did mention that if 3.7 was working for him (OP) then that was great.

Len
I'm totally OK with it .
I knew what you were driving at.
No problem.
I keep a rod and tap hammer in my pistol box.
I will proceed with caution:D
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Post by Al W. on 12/14/2019, 5:39 pm

Al W. wrote:At 3.7 BE with the JHP 185 gr., there's not a hint of it being a squib.
Nothing like that .
Pretty sure that 3.5 was a starting charge in one of my data books.
Anyway 3.7 operates the gun.
The wisdom is that accuracy increases toward the top of the charge range.
But, I'm interested in limiting report and concussion .
I just ordered a chronograph from Midway.
Youth wants to know.
Al W.
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Post by Al W. on 12/15/2019, 4:54 pm

Fun this morning at the range.
I brought  along a hundred of the 185 jHP with the 3.7gr BE charge and proceeded to lob them down range.
The gun would not cycle the rounds till it had about 6 single shots through it.
When it was warm it would cycle the gun.
Different temperature , different day. Different results.
I don't guess I was doing any harm and the accuracy was all right at 25 yds.
But I don't think I'll continue to charge that light with the factory spring in there.
It was interesting though !
I learned something, not sure what it was , but I learned something . 
I was talking to one fella who has this light charge urge and he said he had gone down the garden path with the springs but he finally settled on 4gr of Trail Boss and a lead SWC at 185 gr. with the standard #15 spring.
Its all fun and games till your shooting a match.
Meanwhile I'm running the gun, breaking it in.
Don't guess I'll be running this light a charge with my next batch !
Al W.
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Post by Jon Eulette on 12/15/2019, 5:25 pm

Typically we pick a load and choose recoil spring to match the load for proper ejection. Factory springs are normally tossed in a box and never used again.
I never go lighter than 10# spring, you will see groups open up at 50 yards when undersprung.
Jon
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Post by Al W. on 12/15/2019, 6:32 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Typically we pick a load and choose recoil spring to match the load for proper ejection. Factory springs are normally tossed in a box and never used again.
I never go lighter than 10# spring, you will see groups open up at 50 yards when undersprung.
Jon
Thats helpful thanks. 
Springs = Mo Money !Very Happy
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Post by zanemoseley on 12/15/2019, 7:25 pm

If you're worried about spring costs in this hobby you're in trouble lol.

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Post by Al W. on 12/15/2019, 8:56 pm

zanemoseley wrote:If you're worried about spring costs in this hobby you're in trouble lol.
The truth hurts.
Besides it makes the people at Wolff happy:D
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Post by Wes Lorenz on 12/15/2019, 9:46 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Typically we pick a load and choose recoil spring to match the load for proper ejection. Factory springs are normally tossed in a box and never used again.
I never go lighter than 10# spring, you will see groups open up at 50 yards when undersprung.
Jon
I also subscribe to Jon's method above. I believe part of proper ejection is paying attention to how hard the slide bottoms out on the frame. 
Too weak of a recoil spring and it breaks your wrist, which makes it hard (longer time) to reacquire the target.
I see this all the time when running our monthly turning target practice.
Wes

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Post by Al W. on 12/15/2019, 10:46 pm

Wes Lorenz wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Typically we pick a load and choose recoil spring to match the load for proper ejection. Factory springs are normally tossed in a box and never used again.
I never go lighter than 10# spring, you will see groups open up at 50 yards when undersprung.
Jon
I also subscribe to Jon's method above. I believe part of proper ejection is paying attention to how hard the slide bottoms out on the frame. 
Too weak of a recoil spring and it breaks your wrist, which makes it hard (longer time) to reacquire the target.
I see this all the time when running our monthly turning target practice.
Wes
I'm paying attention.
Thanks.
I got a spring pack from Wolff.
Curious to see how low I can get that charge with out fouling up the timing of the gun.
Do any of you folks run recoil buffers in these 1911's ?
Seems to me I saw some offered for the Colt.
Various depending of the spring weight , suppose the need could be avoided if you didn't run too low a tension.
Al W.
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Post by LenV on 12/15/2019, 10:55 pm

When I get a new spring or a set of new springs I mark my handi dandi calibrated spring tool. It is a lot easier then trying to remember what spring I have in a pistol. You also have to keep some in your pistol box for those cold days and for those hot days. 

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Post by james r chapman on 12/16/2019, 4:54 am

How you calibrate that thing, Len.
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Post by LenV on 12/16/2019, 9:42 am

This contraption is a relativity comparator. I take a "known" recoil spring and mark it on the wall. If/when I get another new "known" spring I mark it on the wall. I had enough new springs in the last 15 years to add new marks and compare new springs with old marks. I may not know the exact value of an unknown spring but I can tell if is weaker or stronger then a known one.

Len
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Post by Dr.Don on 12/16/2019, 9:45 am

IMO recoil buffers are alibi generators.  Introducing them into your equation at this point will just complicate things with nothing much to be gained.
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Post by radjag on 12/16/2019, 9:53 am

Len.
I would say that your Handi Dandi is probably better calibrated than some ammo manufacturers COAL gauges!
Based on my experience with Fiocchi 32ACP which has to be "bumped" to make it feed in a Pardini. Italian ammo, Italian gun? Mamma Mia!

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