Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by steve_podleski on 6/10/2020, 5:17 pm

Yesterday, for the first time, several rounds did not go off on my 1911 45ACP.   The first 20 rounds went off ok then the next 3 did not.  The first 20 were loaded with a different lot of Wolf primers .  The primer looks like it has a  light hit with the firing pin.  I then tried 30 more with the new lot and about 25% did not go off.  I did not have this problem with the new lot before so I am looking at problems with the 1911: the firing pin looks ok so it be a problem with the firing pin spring?
Attachments
 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Attachment
45ACPprimerstrike2.jpg You don't have permission to download attachments.(141 Kb) Downloaded 3 times
 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Attachment
pin.jpg You don't have permission to download attachments.(182 Kb) Downloaded 2 times

steve_podleski

Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-08-31

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by Wobbley on 6/10/2020, 7:01 pm

It maybe just the primers. Wolf rifle primers are notorious hard to ignite unless FIRMLY seated to the bottom of the pocket. Try CCI or Federal.
Wobbley
Wobbley

Posts : 2953
Join date : 2015-02-12

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by bruce martindale on 6/10/2020, 7:39 pm

Hi Steve, that primer looks high. Changing brands can lead to that because there is a crud ring in the pocket that retards full seating.

Even if it isn't high, it still may not be seated right

bruce martindale

Posts : 746
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Upstate NY

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by zanemoseley on 6/10/2020, 10:12 pm

That's pretty far from a center strike on the primer, that probably isn't doing you any favors.

zanemoseley

Posts : 2042
Join date : 2015-07-11
Location : Cookeville, TN

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by 243winxb on 6/12/2020, 6:15 pm

Clean the main spring. 

Make sure the firing pin spring is in correctly. Clean pin channel.

As said, the off center hit  is not helping.

Get an RCBS  Ram Prime Unit to seat a few of the problem primers, as a test.

But first, try some different primers.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/1911/us-1911/parts-list-1911-2
243winxb
243winxb

Posts : 315
Join date : 2013-12-01
Age : 76
Location : USA

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by Danehogle on 6/12/2020, 10:31 pm

Try Federal primers... they go off if you look at them wrong
Danehogle
Danehogle

Posts : 274
Join date : 2015-07-13
Location : Mt. Vernon Ohio

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by David R on 6/13/2020, 7:16 am

Is it a series 70?   As in no firing pin stop?
Take a pencil, put it in the empty gun eraser first.  point the gun straight up and pull the trigger.  Pencil should fly out of the gun a foot or two.   
This tests the firing pin.   Do it a few times and see if its consistent.

For a while Springifield had a funky mainspring housing with a  lock. If its one of those, replace it with a standard housing and spring.

David
David R
David R

Posts : 351
Join date : 2018-12-10
Age : 60
Location : Hamlin NY

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by 243winxb on 6/13/2020, 4:38 pm

Series 80 Colts have a  "firing pin plunger"  that may cause problems if the trigger is not pulled fully.  Slows tne firing pin. 

Colt had 3 different levers to adjust it. If i  remember correctly? 

Daves post reminded me of it.
243winxb
243winxb

Posts : 315
Join date : 2013-12-01
Age : 76
Location : USA

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by Ed Hall on 6/14/2020, 8:24 am

243winxb wrote:Series 80 Colts have a  "firing pin plunger"  that may cause problems if the trigger is not pulled fully.  Slows tne firing pin. 

Colt had 3 different levers to adjust it. If i  remember correctly? 

Daves post reminded me of it.
Sometimes the trigger stop could be adjusted to where it didn't disengage the firing pin block far enough.  Backing the trigger stop out a bit would cure such a problem.

P.S. I believe David R meant "block" when he wrote "stop," but I'll defer to him.😄  I think they all have a firing pin stop.

Ed Hall

Posts : 780
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by David R on 6/15/2020, 7:22 am

Yes, Firing pin block. Its in case you drop the gun and it "Blocks" or Stops the firing pin from hitting the cartridge.

If the system its out of time, it can cause all kinds of crap.  Once its out of time,  the firing pin or plunger gets burrs on it and it is even more trouble.   

The levers that time the  "Block" come in different sizes but are hard to find.  If one needs lengthening, it can be peened.    My series 80 firing pin block system is gone and a spacer was put in the gun.

We don't know if the OP has a series 70 or 80 or if it passed the pencil test or if it was just hard primers. We don't know what brand of gun.

I see the firing pin is out, can we see the back half?
David
David R
David R

Posts : 351
Join date : 2018-12-10
Age : 60
Location : Hamlin NY

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by patch175 on 6/17/2020, 7:59 pm

Had a similar problem 8 - 10 years ago. All of sudden, at a match, I had numerous FTF due to light primer strikes. Turned out that a screw in my D 550 had backed out and prevented fully seating the primer. Tightened the screw and usually all was well. Once in a while I still find a high primer that needs further seating.

Since then,  I visually scan across my loads looking for "high primers". As FYI a HM shooter friend of mine said the 45 acp primers should be slightly below the plain of the case. Maybe/ say about 0.02 - 0.05 below case.

Just my 2 cents

patch175

Posts : 21
Join date : 2016-03-12
Location : Wilmington, DE

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by james r chapman on 6/17/2020, 8:14 pm

I'm guessing he said .002-.005 below case.
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 4624
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 71
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by zanemoseley on 6/17/2020, 10:31 pm

I don't know .050" below the case would be something to see lol.

zanemoseley

Posts : 2042
Join date : 2015-07-11
Location : Cookeville, TN

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by Slamfire on 6/23/2020, 1:35 pm

I am going to offer the idea that your pistol firing pin strike is way too far off center. I have found that many in the shooting community believe that as long as the firing pin hits the primer, anywhere, the primer will ignite.  Not so.


Report No. R-462 Primer Sensitivity vs. Firing Pin eccentricity
Frankford Arsenal Dec 1943
 
Object: To determine the effect of firing pin eccentricity on the sensitivity of small arms primers
Summary: Retaining firing pin plates were constructed for the drop test machine that have blows eccentric by  .00”, .02” and 0.04”. Drop tests were made on cal.30, .20 carbin, cal 0.45, and cal .50 primed cases (in cases) with sharp anvils, and on cal .30 primers (H-4 in cses) with flat cups. Very little, if any, changes in sensitivity occurs with blows of 0.02” eccentricity; large differences occur with blows of 0.04”.

 “H bar” H̅ is the mean critical firing height. (approximately the 50% ignition point)

From Percussion Primers, Design Requirements, McDonnell Douglas 1970: “Primer manufacturers in their data sheets customarily provide the 100% “all fire” level of their products. This is essentially the same as the mean firing height plus  five standard deviations.
 
The 1943 report shows for the Cal 0.45  H̅  with a four ounce weight is 3.70” for 0.0” eccentricity, 3.70” for 0.02” eccentricity, and 5.11” for 0.04” eccentricity. It takes more energy to get the primer to ignite, the further the firing pin is from the center of the primer.


So, contrary to the conventional wisdom held by many, the further from the center of the primer, and the tip of the anvil, the more likely is the probability of a misfire.  Maybe this cross section of primer construction will help in understanding this:

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. HN9vY7Z


 
Something else that does contribute to misfires is a high primer. CCI, in the article Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079  claimed that the most common cause of misfires is high primers. As an aside, I was told the Garand slamfires were only due to “high primers” and a worn out receiver bridge, turns out, well that was a lie. High primers are the most common cause of misfires, not slamfires. Turns out, the idea that high primers cause slamfires was an Army/NRA misdirection from the most common cause of slamfires: a free floating firing pin and a sensitive primer.  And of the mechanisms out there, by orders of magnitude, the Garand/M14 has the most reports of in battery and out of battery slamfires.  But to get back on track about high primers, if the anvil is not firmly seated and the cup pushed down to set the gap between cup and primer, then the primer will misfire. If the anvil is dangling in the air, often a firing pin strike will seat the primer in the primer pocket, and a second hit usually ignites the primer. Sometimes the primer cake is broken with the first strike and then there is nothing for the anvil to pinch.

Looking at your picture of your primer, that firing hit is hugely off center. That, combined with insensitive primers, is the likely cause of your misfire problem.

Slamfire

Posts : 113
Join date : 2016-04-18

chopper likes this post

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by spursnguns on 6/23/2020, 5:06 pm

Hello steve_podleski,

Also, a drastically off center firing pin strike can "possibly" be indicative of insufficient barrel lockup.  You can mark the top of the cartridge case with a Sharpie, while it is loaded in the magazine (this will indicate the "top").  Fire that round and see if the strike is too high, low, left or right.  If the strike is too high, you should measure the vertical lockup.  Many look for a minimum dimension of 0.040".

Jim
spursnguns
spursnguns

Posts : 490
Join date : 2013-01-04
Age : 62
Location : Gilroy, California

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by patch175 on 6/23/2020, 7:22 pm

Hope i don't create a flame storm response, but I shoot either Federal or CCI primers set between .002 & ,008 below the surface of the case with no misfires. This was measured by my dial indicator. My primer strike is similar to offset in the pictures above.
My Les Baer still shoots 2.5" at 50 yds from my club's  RR with my loads.  I have other 1911 that are not as accurate, but a more centered primer strike.

My conclusion is that centered primer strike is not major requirement. All we need is for the primer to go bang. Thereafter it is up to the powder, bullet, gun, hold and trigger control to deliver the results.

Just my two cents...

patch175

Posts : 21
Join date : 2016-03-12
Location : Wilmington, DE

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by james r chapman on 6/23/2020, 8:18 pm

then switch primers.
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 4624
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 71
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

 Light Strike on 45ACP Primer. Empty Re: Light Strike on 45ACP Primer.

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum