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Bullseye Shooting and Old Age

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CrankyThunder
Olde Pilot
Rick H.
SonOfAGun
DA/SA
243winxb
DonBrummer
Sa-tevp
Wobbley
James Hensler
chopper
Al
james r chapman
cdrt
TonyH
mikemyers
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Post by mikemyers Thu 15 Oct 2020, 8:35 am

What happens when somebody who has been very advanced in Bullseye Shooting reach 90 years old, or so, and for physical reasons, is no longer able to hold the gun steady enough to shoot competitively.  I think I remember something here, that allows a person like that to continue shooting with two hands, but they are classified differently so other shooters using only one hand don't find themselves shooting against other people using both hands.  I wasn't paying much attention to this at the time, and after searching for it in the NRA rules last night, I couldn't find what I was looking for.

If any one of us, who enjoyed Bullseye for many years, got physically unable to compete one handed, does the person need to drop out completely, or have we thought of ways to allow someone like this to shoot to the best of their ability?
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Post by TonyH Thu 15 Oct 2020, 9:17 am

Maybe Section 13 or 24 comes closest to what you are asking? All sanctioned and approved matches allow all comers to enter and shoot matches to the best of their ability as long as they can handle a gun safely and stay within the rules. 
I think there comes a time when one retires from competition and, if able, just shoot for the fun of it. I think each individual would know when that times comes. I know a few people that were high level BE shooters that don't compete anymore but are just as happy running the line or organizing and helping run matches or coaching up and coming shooters (and they are not in their 90's either).
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Post by cdrt Thu 15 Oct 2020, 10:36 am

You are thinking of the One or Two Hand Probationary Match (on Page 57 of the current rule book), which is for beginners.  Since right now, I am running non-sanctioned matches, we let newbie's shoot two handed, I just don't tabulate their scores with everyone else.

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH
Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match.
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Post by james r chapman Thu 15 Oct 2020, 10:38 am

Page 35

Physically disabled shooter
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Post by Al Thu 15 Oct 2020, 10:44 am

My opinion is to encourage them to shoot. If they're an "advanced in experience years" competitor, they already know they can't be the match winner. They just want to experience the camaraderie they had when they were less seasoned.
As long as they can safely compete, I've got no problem with it. God willing, I'll be there too someday.

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Post by james r chapman Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:21 am

I’m waiting for Phil Hemphill to start shooting 2-handed..
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Post by chopper Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:30 am

james r chapman wrote:Page 35

Physically disabled shooter
 Jim, do you know anyone who uses 13 ? It looks like in 13.1 that you cannot support the shooting hand or arm, and further restrictions in 13.4 for wheelchair use. 
  Mike was asking if a person cannot shoot one-handed and has to revert to two-handed position. I wonder if NRA has allowed anybody to do this with all the hoops you have to go through in rule 13. 
 In rule 24 that seems like a probationary period but not really, "No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire." So if you get classified "Probationary shooter" you compete at 25 yds and at a "One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match." To me it seems like a classification and not probationary period. I wonder if that rule restricts them from standard 2700 outdoor and standard indoor matches and only to "One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Matches "
 Stan

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Post by James Hensler Thu 15 Oct 2020, 1:05 pm

Well for one I hope just to live to 90 let alone shoot matches! I will say on the record that if anyone would protest or bitch about looking the other way when an elderly shooter is trying his or her best but has to rely on using 2 hands is clearly not the kind of shooter we need in this sport! Sometimes the actual shooting in a match gets in the way of having good times with friends that you haven’t seen for a long time. This sport is about coming together for the best. Sir if you shoot in Florida come on out and enjoy shooting with us and I hope everyone else feels the same way! I would like to think so!
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Post by Al Thu 15 Oct 2020, 1:38 pm

James Hensler wrote:Well for one I hope just to live to 90 let alone shoot matches! I will say on the record that if anyone would protest or bitch about looking the other way when an elderly shooter is trying his or her best but has to rely on using 2 hands is clearly not the kind of shooter we need in this sport! Sometimes the actual shooting in a match gets in the way of having good times with friends that you haven’t seen for a long time. This sport is about coming together for the best. Sir if you shoot in Florida come on out and enjoy shooting with us and I hope everyone else feels the same way! I would like to think so!
Well Said cheers

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Post by Wobbley Thu 15 Oct 2020, 4:12 pm

james r chapman wrote:I’m waiting for Phil Hemphill to start shooting 2-handed..
You might be waiting for some time.
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Post by james r chapman Thu 15 Oct 2020, 4:17 pm

Wobbley wrote:
james r chapman wrote:I’m waiting for Phil Hemphill to start shooting 2-handed..
You might be waiting for some time.

I was visualizing 2700-200+X

🤣
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Post by mikemyers Thu 15 Oct 2020, 5:21 pm

Al wrote:My opinion is to encourage them to shoot. If they're an "advanced in experience years" competitor, they already know they can't be the match winner. They just want to experience the camaraderie they had when they were less seasoned.  As long as they can safely compete, I've got no problem with it. God willing, I'll be there too someday.
That comes the closest to what I was trying to write.  In this case, the person I'm thinking of continues to shoot, one handed, and because of the physical limitation knows that his score will suffer.  The "problem" sets in when it's "sustained fire".  So, he shoots Slow reasonably well, and then shoots Timed, and Rapid with difficulty.  

If it was up to me, I'd give the person a negative 50 (or whatever) handicap, and let them compete.
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Post by Sa-tevp Thu 15 Oct 2020, 6:26 pm

Knowing some older shooters I don't think any of them would want to shoot with two hands, it would be too foreign to them. They may score in the 600s with a 45 but two hands would be weird for them.
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Post by Wobbley Thu 15 Oct 2020, 6:36 pm

IMO, as a match director and for the shooter in question only, I’d turn the targets to give him as much time so he could finish his string.  He has more than paid his dues, let him finish.  It’s the least you could do.
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Post by mikemyers Thu 15 Oct 2020, 10:35 pm

With the person I'm thinking of, it's a medical issue.  Sa-tevp, you're probably right.  
'Wobbley', I doubt he would ask for that, but it sounds like a good suggestion to me.
Physical problems limit his mobility nowadays, and the doctors haven't figured out a "fix".

I will pass the ideas along, but I don't think anything will change.
I think he goes to be with the people, doing what he enjoys, not in any way to "compete".

Thanks for the ideas!
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Post by DonBrummer Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:18 pm

We have a 75+ yr old shooter with Parkinson's who shows up at nearly every match. He is happily afforded every accommodation and given whatever assistance needed. He's extremely grateful.  He doesn't care about his scores.  He shows up for the camaraderie, to assist with scoring, and to simply shoot the breeze. His eyes and mind are as sharp as a tack.   Everyone on the line is supportive.
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Post by 243winxb Fri 16 Oct 2020, 9:32 am

Handicap score system may work for all?  Used for small local weekly shoots.https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2605-scoring-handicap-system-for-small-local-clubs
 
This should work 2 handed, or from a sitting position, if one has a bad back or other problems. 
Do what ever is needed to keep shooting.
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Post by mikemyers Fri 16 Oct 2020, 10:12 am

I sent that link off as an email.  

Sounds to me like a perfect solution to what I was looking for.

Thanks!!

(This sounds like a wonderful way to get new members at a club more interested in matches.  People at my club don't shoot Bullseye because it is too difficult. This idea would level the playing field, and maybe get even more people involved.)
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Post by DA/SA Fri 16 Oct 2020, 10:25 am

mikemyers wrote: People at my club don't shoot Bullseye because it is too difficult. 
Kinda sad...

The last match at my range was canceled because I was the only one that entered. The previous match was one other person and myself.

I train at the range every Sunday morning and dry fire two sessions a day regardless though.
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Post by SonOfAGun Fri 16 Oct 2020, 9:02 pm

mikemyers wrote:...People at my club don't shoot Bullseye because it is too difficult.

I shoot bullseye because it is difficult.
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Post by Rick H. Sat 28 Nov 2020, 3:06 pm

I don't shoot traditional one hand bullseye anymore and haven't for quite a while.  Two things drove me away from it.  One was my job as an LEO.  We left traditional one handed shooting decades ago in favor of two handed shooting.  Simply put it was easier to train people to shoot using two hands versus one.  Shot placement and round accountability are all important.  I found as a firearms instructor it was very difficult to stay well versed on both forms of shooting at the same time.  Not that I left one handed shooting go by the wayside, as we did teach it for those rare occasions when you may need it, but two handed shooting was the norm.  And our Q-course required one handed strong and weak hand shooting.

Some years after I retired I noticed a kind of twitching in my arms and hands that caused me a great deal of difficulty doing certain things including one handed pistol shooting.  It also hampered my ability somewhat when riding a motorcycle, but that's another story.  Eventually I decided to get my problem examined by a doctor and the diagnosis after a bunch of rather painful tests was a calcium like substance in my upper spinal column that is putting pressure on my spinal cord.  Can it be fixed I asked?  Maybe or maybe not was the best answer I received from a couple of doctors.  Surgery could make it better, or it could make it worse, but certainly not the same.  It all came down to pain actually.  I have none and as long as I have none they don't want to operate and I guess I don't blame them.  I have several friends and even my brother who have had this type of surgery done and most say they would not go through it again.  My brother had this surgery done twice and he is worse today than before the surgery.

So herein lies the quandary.  Most true bullseye shooters say they find shooting one handed easier than using two hands.  One can read many past threads on this forum and others to verify this.  If that is true why is there this negative feeling regarding someone using two hands to shoot a bullseye match?  Does this feeling lend itself to the fact it's the way we have always shot bullseye matches and it should stay that way!  From a personal standpoint most "new" shooters are immediately drawn to shooting with two hands because that how they see it done on TV and in the movies.  Forcing them to shoot one handed makes them dislike the game due to the results on paper.  Eventually everything must change to stay current and let's face it, interesting.

So in my case, I grew up shooting one handed until I went into law enforcement and I was introduced to the benefits of using two hands via different methods.  So in my estimation bullseye matches should allow both one and two handed shooting, but with a separate classification for such.  I shouldn't need a medical card of some sort to allow me to use two hands and I really don't like forcing someone to take the arms off their wheelchair to shoot.  Seems like an old outdated rule that should be removed.  Okay, let the fallout begin....

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Post by Wobbley Sat 28 Nov 2020, 4:05 pm

Even though i was trained as a “bullseye” pistol shooter years ago, I actually find one-hand and two hand shooting about equal in terms of raw difficulty.  It is certainly easier to become more proficient quicker and easier to maintain that proficiency with a two handed hold.  However, true precision requires sight alignment and good trigger control.  I’ve found that few two-handed “combat” shooters really get good at trigger control and sight alignment.  I’ve actually shot some “combat” matches in a classic Bullseye stance and one-handed grip.  And done well.  I just find it easier, really!
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Post by Olde Pilot Sat 28 Nov 2020, 4:14 pm

Remember Phil has already shot two handed in winning 5 PPC National Championships! His revolver is in the NRA Museum.

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Post by james r chapman Sat 28 Nov 2020, 8:20 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:Remember Phil has already shot two handed in winning 5 PPC National Championships! His revolver is in the NRA Museum.

Phil won 10 PPC championships.
The first 5 with the museum gun!
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Post by CrankyThunder Sat 28 Nov 2020, 8:28 pm

Oh Jees Mike:

At my new club we have a old timer that has contributed much to the sport, running matches, organizing events, still runs the air pistol league.......

It is a honor to shoot next to him even if he uses two hands, is sitting on his bench, and resting his elbows on the table.  

Is he welcome?   He gets the red carpet treatment. 

Regards, 
George
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