Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Advice on the way to Master

+12
straybrit
BHeintz
TampaTim
DA/SA
SteveT
Oleg G
BE Mike
CR10X
Outthere
Jack H
jjbhonn
lanjo
16 posters

Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Advice on the way to Master

Post by lanjo 12/31/2020, 6:06 pm

Hi All,

I have a few questions that I was hoping to get some feedback from experienced shooters...

1.) Is it worth practicing individual elements of the shot sequence like hold independent of making the whole shot sequence?  I feel that my hold needs to be smaller and slower, but I am not sure it is worth practicing it independent of the whole shot sequence.  I would think it would be easier to get better in each element (e.g. hold) as part of the whole shot sequence.  Just focus your conscious training on the one element (e.g. hold) during a given training session in the context of the whole shot sequence. But I am not sure...

2.) Is the mental program different for slow fire, than timed and rapid.  I have developed a mental program for slow fire that requires the long time allowed in slow fire to run.  My idea will be to develop a separate mental program for timed and rapid.  What do other people do....do people use the same mental program for all three stages, one separate for slow and a second for timed and rapid, or a separate one for each stage?

3.) What do people do for breathing during timed and rapid.  They say your eyes have 6 sec of oxygen.  I have been holding my breath for the whole timed and rapid.  Would it be better to breath as part of the mental program during timed and rapid.

4.) what part of the finger do people put on the trigger.  Zinns says to put the hard part of the joint on your trigger finger in contact with the trigger.  Maybe my hands are too small (using the thin 1911 grips and a modified M41 grip for smaller hands already) but it is unnatural to do that and my scores drop from putting the tip or fleshy part of the trigger finger on the trigger.  What do people suggest...

Thanks...

Joe

lanjo

Posts : 87
Join date : 2015-02-22
Location : Richmond, VA

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by jjbhonn 1/1/2021, 1:45 am

Happy New Year everyone! As a marksman, I do not have a lot of pistol trigger time experience. I do have a small hand and short stubby fingers like Brian (we compared hand/finger sizes a few years back). I replaced the standard M41 grip with CMM grip (thin slab like the 1911). I place the edge of the crease nearest the fleshy part of my trigger finger along the right edge of my trigger (I am right handed). I can feel the trigger moving as I try to squeeze (not quite there yet) without disturbing the dot. Thought I would have this mastered by now. Good luck and don't give up trying. Joe

jjbhonn

Posts : 26
Join date : 2013-09-20

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Jack H 1/1/2021, 2:09 am

I may be a contrarian, but finger placement comes in fourth to me.  Nothing wrong with the Z Spot, but pressing the trigger straight back, having a natural grip alignment to the eye, and consistent recoil management are more important.
Jack H
Jack H

Posts : 2462
Join date : 2011-06-10

Outthere likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Outthere 1/1/2021, 6:33 am

Jack H wrote:I may be a contrarian, but finger placement comes in fourth to me.  Nothing wrong with the Z Spot, but pressing the trigger straight back, having a natural grip alignment to the eye, and consistent recoil management are more important.
The "Z Spot". Classic.
Outthere
Outthere

Posts : 296
Join date : 2013-03-20

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by CR10X 1/1/2021, 8:15 am

My first advice is if you are interested in really shooting precision pistol is to get out of Expert class as fast as you can by learning and training and do not get distracted by equipment.  Just get what you need to get (a decent .22 and maybe a .45 depending on how long you've been shooting) and get started training.

My second advice is to grab a large glass of your favorite beverage, and take a few hours to peruse the past topics in this section (Fundamentals) and the Bullseye Education Library.  There are significantly less topics and posts in this section so it will not take as long as reading how be a master reloader or equipment tester.

My third advice is to grab a composition book and make notes on, well, damn near everything you do or think related to determining how you can shoot the best shot you can.  Observations while shooting, ideas from reading the Fundamentals topics, etc.  

Now some people get really good just shooting matches, others (like myself) probably need a different approach.  If you feel like you are in the second group, read on. 

As to the questions:

(1) (Now this first part may just sound like semantics, but for me it reinforces the mental picture and process for improvement.)    It is not worth practicing anything at this point (except once in a while, see next paragraph).  It is worth a whole lot to train, on specific parts and on the entire shot process. Practicing is for when you have your complete process and ideas formed in you mind of exactly what you want to do.  Training is the process of finding the individual parts and putting them together to shoot an acceptable shot.  And that includes, most importantly, training on how to see and call your shots.  Training has a specific purpose, plan and idea behind each part.  And its written down before you start each session, so you know what you are going to do and what your results / observations are when you are done with that session.  

Practice  is when you are not working on anything and just go to the range and shoot, just like a match.  Not correcting or working on anything but seeing how your training is coming together.  Its also "training" for how to shoot a match where do you do NOT think about correcting anything, but to just relax and learn how to shoot like you trained under match conditions (pressure).  Again, you make a plan and write down the results when finished.  

(2) If your program takes longer than 5 seconds, you probably have too much of a program and it will be subject to glitches.  Get yourself ready to fire 1 or 5 shots before the gun ever leaves the bench.  If you know what you need to see and feel, you will rehearse it in real time before the gun leaves the bench.  When you raise the gun you will perform the shot process exactly as you rehearsed it for timed / rapid fire, not matter what.  For slow fire it will be completed if you see the wobble approaching its minimum or you start over.  TF / RF doesn't matter as much for the minimum wobble as it does for complete and uninterrupted trigger process (5 times).

(3) If you are thinking about breathing, you are thinking about the wrong thing.  Take deep breaths and relax before the gun leaves the bench.  Adnominal breathing, not upper chest.  RELAX and rehearse the shot process in you mind. Then just shoot the damn shot or shots....

(4) Use whatever part of the finger or whatever part of appendage you have that enables you to operate the trigger so it feels like its coming straight back into the center of your hand, wrist, arm and shoulder and does not disturb the orientation of the gun.  Keep constant and firm grip pressure.  If you have to increase your grip to steady the gun either you don't have enough grip or you don't have the trigger finger in the right place and moving straight back.

Again, MAKE notes and review.  Ask questions.  Everyone will have an answer, I guarantee that.  The question is which answer(s) will work best for you.

Good luck and good shooting.  Here's to hoping you make it soon!

CR

PS:  It doesn't matter if your first shot is a "9" or even a "5".  A 99 will win almost every slow fire string and a 899 will win every Agg.  A 95 will win most slow fire strings and a 895 will still win damn near every Agg.  Zins shot a 5 on a target at Perry (ammo).  It didn't change the outcome. It all depends on what YOU do next.


Last edited by CR10X on 1/1/2021, 9:16 am; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : still can't type for carp)

CR10X

Posts : 1738
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

BE Mike, dieselguy624, orpheoet, tomj44, MarkOue, Larryb, Ratguner and like this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by BE Mike 1/1/2021, 8:51 am

As usual CR10X has valuable information. I might add that a written shot plan and shooting diary (already suggested) are important, because the mind tends to forget poor performance and makes one want to do what one does best, not what one needs to improve. We want to remember good performance only.  I believe that mental training helped me over the hump from Expert to Master, but it wasn't the only thing, by far. I read a lot of books, some were about the mental aspect of golf, tennis, etc. I also took some courses. I studied the book Psycho-Cybernetics by Maltz. If you are a super confident type of individual, you may not need this, but I am the kind of person that found self-doubt sneaking in once in a while. I also believe that shooting as many matches as possible is helpful.
BE Mike
BE Mike

Posts : 2107
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Vinkemulder likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Oleg G 1/1/2021, 10:17 am

In addition to what Cecil said, which is right on the mark, as always, I would like to offer a few more detailed suggestions, which come from my own training regiment.

1. I believe that training your hold as a separate exercise is valuable. I have developed the following exercise: Raise and hold your pistol for a prolonged interval (90 secs for me). This is done only with a blank wall, never with a target, as we don't want to hold on a target without the trigger moving. During this exercise, I perform the following:
a. Focus on visualizing your arm and hand from the shoulder, through the elbow and wrist to the front sight / dot as a single rigid appendage (imagine a tree limb, a steel bar, or anything else that works for you)
b. Maintain perfect sight alignment for your iron sights or dot.
c. Keep your eyes open and closed for equal, increasing time intervals - 3 secs, 4 secs, 5 secs, etc. When you close your eyes, continue seeing your front sight / dot exactly as you saw it with your eyes open. When you open your eyes, check that the sight / dot alignment has not changed.
d. I pick a spot on the wall that is close to a corner but not so close that I can see the corner when maintaining my sight alignment. When I open my eyes I check that there were no changes in my field of vision - helps to control body sway and develop a better stance and balance.

2. I think that when you speak about a mental program you mean visualizing your shot process before a shot or a string. If so, visualizing your shot process is absolutely key and must be done before each shot or string. It is just as important as calling each shot. A "program" to help you with this visualization may be a sequence of short keywords, tied to the key parts of your process. Cecil's recommendation of keeping the visualization brief is spot on. For me, the shot process is the same regardless of Slow Fire or Sustained Fire and I visualize a  Slow Fire shot or the entire Sustained Fire String. From the second shot in the sustained fire string, the parts of the process, which deal with raising the pistol and watching for the decrease in wobble are omitted. When I visualize the sustained fire string, the main focus of the visualization is on moving the trigger and smoothly releasing the shot, as the dot returns to the black. Remember, it is four times easier to shoot a 10 on the short line than it is on the long line (somebody on the forum said this). There is plenty of time between the "Load" and "Ready on the Right" commands to complete visualization of an entire sustained fire string.

3. I usually take a short breath between second and third shots in timed fire and none in rapid fire. However, taking this breath in timed fire is NOT part of the shot process, it happens by itself and I don't do it consciously.

I became an Expert last year and my goal is to continuously improve my quality of shooting through rigorous training, so that is allows me to become a Master by the end of 2023.

Best Regards,
Oleg.
Oleg G
Oleg G

Posts : 576
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA

SingleActionAndrew likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by SteveT 1/1/2021, 11:57 am

lanjo wrote:1.) Is it worth practicing individual elements of the shot sequence like hold independent of making the whole shot sequence?  I feel that my hold needs to be smaller and slower, but I am not sure it is worth practicing it independent of the whole shot sequence.  I would think it would be easier to get better in each element (e.g. hold) as part of the whole shot sequence.  Just focus your conscious training on the one element (e.g. hold) during a given training session in the context of the whole shot sequence. But I am not sure...
Yes. Beginners need to go through the entire process to develop consistency. The more advanced one becomes the more they can identify individual elements, optimize them and integrate them into their shot process.

There is still benefit to going through the whole process, especially leading up to the big match.

lanjo wrote:2.) Is the mental program different for slow fire, than timed and rapid.  I have developed a mental program for slow fire that requires the long time allowed in slow fire to run.  My idea will be to develop a separate mental program for timed and rapid.  What do other people do....do people use the same mental program for all three stages, one separate for slow and a second for timed and rapid, or a separate one for each stage?
Slow and Sustained process should be as close as feasible, but yes, the process is different. I do a visualization before raising the pistol, so that is different in slow vs sustained. In slow fire my mental process goes through the steps slower. In sustained fire, my mental and physical process are all timed to the commands, though when there is a fast caller, the steps are tied to different commands than when there is a slow caller.

Your process should not be different between Timed and Rapid Fire. The only difference for me is that I remind myself of the timing just before settling. If it is timed fire my criteria for pulling the trigger is slightly higher, or should I say my threshold for aborting a trigger pull and restarting is lower in timed fire. Basically I am more willing to mentally reset in timed fire.

lanjo wrote:3.) What do people do for breathing during timed and rapid.  They say your eyes have 6 sec of oxygen.  I have been holding my breath for the whole timed and rapid.  Would it be better to breath as part of the mental program during timed and rapid.
I hold my breath. Sometimes in timed fire I will take a breath if I had to reset and restart a couple of times, but when things are going well, I shoot timed fire in 6-8 seconds.


lanjo wrote:4.) what part of the finger do people put on the trigger.  Zinns says to put the hard part of the joint on your trigger finger in contact with the trigger.  Maybe my hands are too small (using the thin 1911 grips and a modified M41 grip for smaller hands already) but it is unnatural to do that and my scores drop from putting the tip or fleshy part of the trigger finger on the trigger.  What do people suggest...
Whatever part works for you. I prefer to use the crease of the first joint, but whether it is on the right edge, center or left edge of the trigger will depend on the pistol, grip and trigger length. I don't see a disadvantage using the pad of the finger if the trigger blade is wide, but I believe that may depend on a person's finger. If you have fat puffy fingers it will be more of a factor. I have relatively skinny fingers without much of a pad.
SteveT
SteveT

Posts : 872
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by CR10X 1/1/2021, 1:20 pm

Another mental type subject to cover (and deal with) is your score tracking and goals.  Now I'm not suggesting setting score goals, but it can't be helped when thinking about how to get to Master. 

Let's take a short look at scores how they can track getting to master.  In theory, we can shoot 90's on the long line and 98 TF and 97 RF and reach 845 per Agg or 2565 for the Grand.

Now most of us lose some points going from .22 to CF and .45. (But the goal is to keep the CF and .45 as close to the .22 as you can.) And you get better .22 scores by getting better shooting the .45 after a certain point. So keep that in mind there are lots of point you can "lose" and still make Master.  Don't get tied up in what your score is, just realize that (as stated below) we don't have to beat ourselves up by chasing perfection.  Being consistently "pretty good" will get one pretty far when shooting precision pistol.  Don't beat yourself up when you lose points, just continue to look for consistency.  That's the beauty of Precision Pistol so far to me, no one has ever shot a 2700.  But it's out there waiting on someone, it might be you. 

The thing (to me) to track is your ratio of 9's and 10's (or whatever your "good shot" is) versus those outside the 9 ring per per string. That give you a ratio of positive success to measure; as opposed to counting 8's or less.  You can see from the 845 score potential that 9's are not your problem when shooting for Master (pardon the pun).  The issue is reducing those shots outside the 9 ring.  So at this point (and I'm going to try to say this in a positive way) quit chasing perfect at the expense of losing more than a point per shot on the long line.  For me tracking and measuring the good shots reinforces the good process.  (When going for High Master, its still simply a matter tracking the good shots and reducing the number of shots in the 9 or 8 ring - easier said than done, but everybody needs a goal.)   

And shooting around 92 to 95 on the long line goes a long way to learning how to clean the short line targets. 

If one is shooting expert scores, the some shots (a pretty good number of them) are in the 9 and 10 ring.  Get used to seeing and feeling how you shoot those shots.  Replay those shots, write down what you did and how it felt and what you saw.  

(Here's the part that's hard not to phrase in the "negative") Quit studying the bad shots.  You do not want to know or think about what you did on those at this point.  It's enough to know that you did not do what would have produced a better result.  So simply replay the process that you know produces better results before firing the next shot.  (And do you best to ignore those people that point out that single 8 or whatever on your target when scoring. It doesn't exist anymore.)  Last thing to look at through the scope before the next shot is the the "X". 

Remember the difference between a Marksman and Master scoping shots.  The Marksman is looking to see where the shot went, the Master is checking to see how close it was to his call.  

Just some more thoughts since its raining and a little too cold for a good day at the range.  Not to mention last night was New Year's Eve.  And I probably could have phrased a lot of this better.

CR


Last edited by CR10X on 1/1/2021, 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Again, can't type or spell or keep on track when there a so many things to discuss on this subject.)

CR10X

Posts : 1738
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

BE Mike, tomj44, SonOfAGun and Thin Man like this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by DA/SA 1/1/2021, 2:20 pm

I began tracking shots outside of the ten ring for a while, where I would shoot 50 rounds of .22 and count the 13 shots outside of the ten ring on a B-8 target and think "OK, only 13 "bad" shots this time". I realized what I was doing was mentally emphasizing the "bad" shots. 

After realizing what I was doing, I quickly switched that around to thinking "OK, 37 "good" shots within the ten ring out of 50".

I do my best to completely ignore shots that I don't like, and only track the "good" shots.
DA/SA
DA/SA

Posts : 959
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 66
Location : Southeast Florida

Arthur likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by TampaTim 1/1/2021, 9:01 pm

This forum has a pile of great information some of it will work for you and some will not. I would also suggest getting a great shooting coach. When I  first started shooting about 2 months I hired Andy Moody and worked with him for 2 days in Richmond VA. I made master my first year and high master my second. He helped me not to develop bad habits which are hard to stop. He watched me take 1 shot and stopped me. He then started to work with me on my grip and stance. I took lots of notes when he told me what to change he explained why we were making the change. I have reviewed my notes many times when I noticed my scores not improving.

TampaTim

Posts : 102
Join date : 2013-02-27
Age : 70
Location : Tampa

BE Mike likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Thanks

Post by lanjo 1/1/2021, 11:58 pm

Thanks everyone....

Thanks for all the good advice on these issues.  I am sure more will come-up as time progresses.  I am Expert right now, but have been for 2 years now.  Seem to be getting a little better but have not progressed as fast as I would like.  I agree with the comments on focusing on the positive aspects of my development.  Besides reading about the standard books on the metal aspects of golf and tennis, I have been a big disciple of Lanny Bassham recently.  I have a few of his books and tapes. He is a very positive reinforcement mental training approach.  I have been using it for a few months now.  It seems to be helpful.  I have a diary which I try to keep up-to-date.  I think the mental aspect is really where I am missing my potential.  There are some issues with equipment (damn model 41 seems to get FTE from time to time - sometimes I just want to sink it to the bottom of a lake - trying a new Volquarsten extractor and tuning the ejector). I am shooting a model 52-2 for center fire.  I got the 1:10 twist barrel in it and it really helped with accuracy at 50 yards.  The benefits of the M52 is really captured at 25 yards (which is 2/3 of the CF 900). You cant beat the trigger on the M52 and the soft recoil - like shooting a 22. I can shoot master level scores in practice with the 22 and 38...usually averaging ~97% in timed and rapid pretty consistently, and 90-92% in slow fire.  Reduced scores with the 45. This is with the ability to clear jams and other issues that would not be allowed in a match. I always seem to get to flustered in the match and loose many points.  I am convinced it is mostly mental.  I am really focused on breaking down and thinking deeply about my mental game and the shot sequence. The benefits of dealing with these underlying mental barriers will be tough, but if I can do it will have positive impacts on my life outside of shooting, I think.

Thanks for the advice.  I will for sure have other questions as I really think about my mental game and the shot process.

Best,

Joe

lanjo

Posts : 87
Join date : 2015-02-22
Location : Richmond, VA

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by BE Mike 1/2/2021, 9:02 am

I used to shoot a S&W model 52-1 for the centerfire match. I always used factory match ammo. Many years ago, on the old e-mail Bulleye-L, Larry Carter and other top shooters advised me to give it up and just shoot the 1911 for both the centerfire and .45 matches. Part of their reasoning was that it was harder to learn to shoot 3 guns well instead of just 2. I followed their advice and I think it was part of the reason for my making master. I also got distinguished during that time. Back then a competitor had to use a 1911 and factory ball ammo. I'm not sure whether switching away from the model 52-1 was a big factor in that, but it sure didn't hurt.
BE Mike
BE Mike

Posts : 2107
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by BHeintz 1/2/2021, 3:52 pm

Staying positive can go a really long way with your progress. It honestly took me about 7 or 8 years to figure that out. It also took me about that long to learn to put the gun down shooting slow fire. I would shoot every time I raised the gun, even when I knew I was about to make a bad shot. If you can consistantly shoot expert scores, you are already doing pretty good. If you can minimize as little as 1-2 poor shots per targer, you can increase your score by a substantial amount. I think doing this is pretty realistic for most shooters. Most shooters don't shoot to their full potential on each targer, which can be really frustrating. But if you can just become overall more consistant, even a small amount, it can make a pretty big difference.

BHeintz

Posts : 63
Join date : 2012-01-19
Age : 36
Location : IL

Jwhelan939 and Arthur like this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by CR10X 1/3/2021, 7:57 am

Get your equipment straightened out mechanically, so you can clear your mind and keep it clear mentally while training / shooting.  That's not experimenting with equipment, it is just plain necessary to reduce the distractions to training.

It's better to have a 100% Ruger Mark II with a 1.5 inch group than an sometimes "whatever" gun with a 1 inch group. (You pick the group size / gun type, but you get the drift.)  


Noticed your location.  If you ever get down to Creedmoor NC (Sir Walter Gun Club) for matches look me up (or Clark Hardesty over at Mebane (Durham); or the guy's at Charlotte or Asheville).  I'll let you try out some other equipment or just talk about shooting and I'm sure others will too!  As a matter of fact, its a good idea to talk to about shooting and see the equipment of shooters that are shooting like you want to shoot and matches are where that happens.  And matches are good for seeing how well you've been training.  Wink

CR

CR10X

Posts : 1738
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Wobbley and MarkOue like this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by straybrit 1/3/2021, 2:07 pm

One more point - on the 2 occasions that I started shooting consistent almost-master scores (derailed 1st by my elbow blowing out and the 2nd by the pandemic) the big difference for me was physical fitness. Not athlete level by any means but enough so that I wasn't having to 'work' in 45. Looking back at the available scores (this is not by any means complete but a rough average) pre-fit SF would be 180, 175, 170 with timed and rapid in the 180-190 range. Once I'd hauled my tired old frame into some sort of shape they were running around 188, 182, 178. With timed and rapid both generally >190 I was hovering around the 844-848 mark.

Who knows if I can manage it a third time.

straybrit

Posts : 297
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by bruce martindale 1/3/2021, 3:06 pm

I would LOVE to have been able to hire Andy Moody for training or Jon Eulette for that matter. 
Trying to make Master or better is harder when you're working and raising a family but then you have health and strength. At retirement, you have time and money but then come other issues...

It seems that at around age 45 those balances are optimized. However, in this game, you're not wash d up at 23 or even at 63.

2020 was a total mess for me so maybe this year will be better.

Oh another thing, once you make Master, forget about winning much money if that was important to you.  It's still there, but rare. Ideal spot is top of class but not over.

bruce martindale

Posts : 1176
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Upstate NY

Jwhelan939, hipirn2, djperry2 and Arthur like this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Thanks Again

Post by lanjo 1/4/2021, 1:32 am

I find shooting the M52 helps me at this stage.  I can definitely shoot it better than the 45, so it ups my score for the CF stage if I were shooting the 45 for the CF stage.  I will see where the next year takes me. Maybe I will dump it.  Don't know.  I would like to keep it.  It is one of the finest shooting semi-auto pistols I have ever shot. Balanced well, phenomenal trigger, accurate as hell with the 1:10 barrel, and soft recoil.  What more do you want in a target gun?

I love the Model 41.  It has issues but it fits well in my hand and has a good trigger and when it runs well it is a ringer.  I understand what you are saying about getting a reliable gun.  I got a double alibi at my last match of the 2020 season with the M41.  Really hurts the score.  I forgot to put the drop of oil on the first round of the Mag the whole day.  That usually clears-up the FTE with the gun.

I might try a trainer or coach if I make Master and want to try High Master.  I have some gaping holes in my game right now that I think I can make a decent run at fixing. It seems obvious to me what needs to be worked on.

Not really in it for the money.  Winning the 4-$10 at matches was good early when I was a Sharpshooter and Marksman.  But now that small money is not a factor at all.  Just making Master would be all I would want for years of effort.

I am indeed out of shape.  I have a young family (3 year old and a second on the way), a really demanding job (professor at a research university) so my physical fitness has really suffered over the last 5 years.  I want to get back into being in shape for many reasons. The COVID killed my gym time and I don't like to run outdoors.  I will get back into it.

At this point I think I have a decent plan and equipment.  Just need to implement it over the winter.  Focus on the mental aspects of the game. I know I can shoot Master level scores, I just have to convince and train my sub-conscious I can shoot Master level scores.

lanjo

Posts : 87
Join date : 2015-02-22
Location : Richmond, VA

Jwhelan939 likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Jwhelan939 1/4/2021, 7:08 am

Lanjo,

As an Expert, I usually avoid giving my thoughts, but I am in essentially the same spot. I have a 2yo and a second on the way and work takes big chunks of training time (though due to the pandemic I am currently down to one job). I currently do not have the ability to get to the range more than once a month. I grabbed the lower model Scatt to help me practice whenever I could grab some time. The Scatt has really helped me fine tune some of those individual aspects of my shot process. I do really well with rf and cf, but struggle a ton with the 45. I have only been using the Scatt for about a month, but it has already helped me see some of the flaws in my grip and trigger pull on the 1911. It seems small, but I was getting the smallest dip in the barrel when the hammer hit. The Scatt helped me see that adjusting my finger placement eliminated that dip. Was the smallest bit of motion, but the Scatt helped me focus on my follow through and see the dip. I guess you could say the Scatt helped me have an a hah moment if you will. Not saying it's going to push me to master, but the Scatt was a tool that helped me gain some training time in a hectic period of my life.

Jwhelan939

Posts : 834
Join date : 2013-04-27
Age : 39
Location : Kintnersville, PA

MarkOue likes this post

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by C7@71 1/4/2021, 8:49 am

Other than the basic SCATT is 4 times more than the MantisX system, how do they compare.

I am far from an expert, but I do keep improving. The reviews and some field tests that a buddy (very competent 2 hand shooter) and I ran showed what many “professional”, but sometimes overly exuberant, writers found.

The MantisX was not the most accurate at calling out the “error” in the shot.  We did several individual shot comparisons. Generally, the actual shot POI and the MantisX POI correlated well. However the analysis was less than beneficial.

The MantisX did help improve trigger control and training with it improved actual scoring.  Just fell out of the habit of using it and spent more range time.  Need to use it now.

The MantisX, and I have an older one circa late 2017 was not that sensitive on a gun with no hard mounting, such as a rail. I lost a lot of shots during live fire with a Buck Mark and a Weaver Mount under the barrel. I used an old 10/22 and a piece of 3M VHB tape. The VHB is thin (0.045 or so) and is one of the best, if not the best, thin double stick tapes.  I tried adjusting the sensitivity, but not with any success.  Gluing a rail or their universal mount on to a magazine base might work.

Just curious about other REAL expert’s opinions on the MantisX and maybe the SCATT.

C7@71

Posts : 132
Join date : 2019-10-18
Location : Raleigh, NC

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Jwhelan939 1/4/2021, 5:41 pm

I'm not a master yet, so this is just my observation/experience. Take it for what it cost! I've had a Mantis for a few years. Started with the original and upgraded to the 10x maybe a year and a half ago? Have my 3 badges that Mantis offers for meeting their challenges. It's a really great tool. Makes dryfire way more interesting. It's accelerometer based. So it does well at telling you if your hold and triggering are good. But not in relation to your target. It doesn't do great when using a roll trigger and trying to practice a steady squeeze while moving onto target. 

I wouldn't say I had as good of luck as you as far as how well it transfers. There were many times I knew I held too long and dropped a shot. But because it is accelerometer based (not calibrated to any sort of static target) and set to a specific time before shot, I would sometimes get scores higher than what I should have. Actually alot of my scores were higher than they should have been. The Scatt has a much nicer trace. The score still does not transfer, but it's much closer than the Mantis. 

The Scatt software also has more bells and whistles. The software tells you your time on target as well as your time on group center. It also tells you your speed, which is very helpful in discerning movements much smaller than the Mantis. For example, the Mantis didn't pick up the hammer strike issue I was having. I could see it in my dot, but the Mantis didn't/couldn't perceive it for some reason? But it was costing me points on target. My targets showed that I was sporadically putting rounds at 7 o'clock with the 1911. Using the Scatt I was able to diagnose what was causing it and try a number of positions to find the most comfortable/repeatable position that didn't cause my issue. 

Having the Scatt software also gives you scaled b8 and b16 targets, so it sort of helps train your eye to the visualization of the bull. This may be more of a personal thing. I like training with the same visualization as 8 compete. So I have a scaled target at the appropriate height. 

Both are great tools and I still use my mantis when I dryfire without the Scatt, but I think the Scatt has been more helpful. I hope this made sense. I was typing it in the midst of cooking, cleaning, and grading all while being "observed" by my 2 year old "foreman" (daughter). 

Jwhelan939

Posts : 834
Join date : 2013-04-27
Age : 39
Location : Kintnersville, PA

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by hipirn2 1/10/2021, 3:15 pm

I admit I am a hard-headed but patient slow learner. It took me 30+ years of slow improvements to make Distinguished & Master at 50+ yrs. of age.... There are two ways that I have seen accomplished to make Master in a year or two. 
#1 invest in a train load of ammo and practice every day (many hours) until you've used it up, using range commands and standard targets.   You'll learn!
#2 analyze and repeat what it takes to fire every good shot or string of good shots in detail, not cursory.    Repeat: analyze what you are doing right to make a good shot (string) what it feels like, what state of mind it required. If your thinking about bad shots you'll be shooting them!
   Practice of fundamentals will start you on the road but nothing more.. Expensive equipment is nice but not nessasary, I made master with A mdl. 41 with sports (4 1/2") barrel A pre-70's Colt 45acp that J.Clark fixed so it would shoot my handloaded wad cutters and a stock Colt Gold cup with DCM issue 45acp ammo for distinguished.  In this present day and age (if we are allowed!) I would choose method #2, as the first method may no longer be viable.....    I am 81 now and my hold is "trying" for the scoring rings, but don't think it's still not a joy, tr-in & remberin!. Especially the joy of being a Master, winning a few matches and being Distinguished! Most anyone can be accomplished if they choose..

hipirn2

Posts : 13
Join date : 2013-08-23
Age : 83
Location : Kingscreek (Urbana) Ohio

Back to top Go down

Advice on the way to Master Empty Re: Advice on the way to Master

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum