Need Advice To Reach Master
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dronning
Orpanaut
Dave C.
davekp
DavidR
C.Perkins
john bickar
Jon Eulette
dsandula
13 posters
Page 1 of 1
Need Advice To Reach Master
I'm shooting a 279 average in 22 for the outdoor season here in Michigan.
I'm looking for any advice that will get me to the next level.
I can consistently hold 98 in timed and rapid. So it's the long line where I'm really needing help.
I'm looking for any advice that will get me to the next level.
I can consistently hold 98 in timed and rapid. So it's the long line where I'm really needing help.
Last edited by dsandula on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Repair)
dsandula- Posts : 72
Join date : 2013-08-20
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Understanding what each fundamental is and working on each one independently is crucial to climbing the classification ladder. Break each one down in training. Make a shot plan that is performance oriented. Now throw scores out the window
To many shooters get wrapped up in their scores and that's what limits them from getting better. When focusing on scores we're not focusing on performance. By focusing on performance it now becomes one shot at a time; which is one 10 at a time which leads to shooting mostly 10's. You will expect to shoot a 10! When focusing on scores we have a tendency to have a comfort zone. Problem with that is you just shot nine 10's on SF and get uncomfortable on last shot and send it deep into the 6 ring. By using performance oriented shooting you've been training yourself to think about shot execution instead of score. I trt and think about my shot placement/group. By shooting good groups we aren't focusing on scores, we're thinking in terms of keeping all the shots in the group. We're using performance to get there, not scores!
So work on shot execution and the scores automatically come that get you into the master classification. It's really one shot at a time whether SF or timed & rapid. It's learning how to focus on each shot as breaking them.
Another factor is you have to act like a master.....mentally! Can't be talking about bad shots and doing marksman things! Remember you can't soar with eagles when you hang out with turkeys. It's true! Learn to block out or walk away from the negative shooters. Let them ruin their own performance but not yours
Jon
To many shooters get wrapped up in their scores and that's what limits them from getting better. When focusing on scores we're not focusing on performance. By focusing on performance it now becomes one shot at a time; which is one 10 at a time which leads to shooting mostly 10's. You will expect to shoot a 10! When focusing on scores we have a tendency to have a comfort zone. Problem with that is you just shot nine 10's on SF and get uncomfortable on last shot and send it deep into the 6 ring. By using performance oriented shooting you've been training yourself to think about shot execution instead of score. I trt and think about my shot placement/group. By shooting good groups we aren't focusing on scores, we're thinking in terms of keeping all the shots in the group. We're using performance to get there, not scores!
So work on shot execution and the scores automatically come that get you into the master classification. It's really one shot at a time whether SF or timed & rapid. It's learning how to focus on each shot as breaking them.
Another factor is you have to act like a master.....mentally! Can't be talking about bad shots and doing marksman things! Remember you can't soar with eagles when you hang out with turkeys. It's true! Learn to block out or walk away from the negative shooters. Let them ruin their own performance but not yours
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
The Marine Corps Pistol Team Workbook.
Which exercise are you stuck on?
Which exercise are you stuck on?
john bickar- Posts : 2250
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Jon is spot on; it is a mind set.
For me making a move half way across the country, have not shot an outdoor 2700 in a year and a half until about 3 weeks ago.
I will keep this little story short as possible.
Going into the first 10 shot string of CF with my M52.
During the first shot attempt at the long line I held too long and lowered the pistol to start all over in the process.(if something is not right, put the gun down).
The second attempt at the first shot ended with sending it off but I called the shot low knowing I dropped my head.
Scoped it, it was a perfect 7 straight down and a touch to the left.
I turned that 7 (bad shot to some), into a good shot to me.
Reason is that I called it and knew what I did wrong which enforces a positive.
Set up for the second shot with positive thoughts of proper posture and process and sent it down range.
Shot looked and felt good, scoped it; X
Continued 2 more shots with out scoping, then reload (I install another magazine of 5 rounds after 4 shots; hot reload; Steve Reiter taught me this; so it is what I do).
Next round sent off and scoped; looks like I have a group.
Send the rest down range with out scoping.
Finish and start loading up the magazines for the next string.
Scoped target and giggled to myself.
Target scored 97-7x
Positive reinforcement of the 1st shot called, not scoping every shot thereafter keeps the gremlins out of your head.
Just remember the gremlins will always try to get in but just turn them around to your advantage.
Have the mind set to turn anything others see as negatives into what you see as a positive will go a long way to making master or beyond.
I am going to do my best to get back up to master level shooting after my long time off.
It will take work, positive mind set and able to call your shots.
Enough of my rambling;
Clarence
For me making a move half way across the country, have not shot an outdoor 2700 in a year and a half until about 3 weeks ago.
I will keep this little story short as possible.
Going into the first 10 shot string of CF with my M52.
During the first shot attempt at the long line I held too long and lowered the pistol to start all over in the process.(if something is not right, put the gun down).
The second attempt at the first shot ended with sending it off but I called the shot low knowing I dropped my head.
Scoped it, it was a perfect 7 straight down and a touch to the left.
I turned that 7 (bad shot to some), into a good shot to me.
Reason is that I called it and knew what I did wrong which enforces a positive.
Set up for the second shot with positive thoughts of proper posture and process and sent it down range.
Shot looked and felt good, scoped it; X
Continued 2 more shots with out scoping, then reload (I install another magazine of 5 rounds after 4 shots; hot reload; Steve Reiter taught me this; so it is what I do).
Next round sent off and scoped; looks like I have a group.
Send the rest down range with out scoping.
Finish and start loading up the magazines for the next string.
Scoped target and giggled to myself.
Target scored 97-7x
Positive reinforcement of the 1st shot called, not scoping every shot thereafter keeps the gremlins out of your head.
Just remember the gremlins will always try to get in but just turn them around to your advantage.
Have the mind set to turn anything others see as negatives into what you see as a positive will go a long way to making master or beyond.
I am going to do my best to get back up to master level shooting after my long time off.
It will take work, positive mind set and able to call your shots.
Enough of my rambling;
Clarence
C.Perkins- Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 61
Location : Surrounded by pines in Wi.
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Great advice guys. John Bickar, I printed the Marine Corps workbook along with a bunch of their "no bullseye" targets and will likely use them following Jon Eulette's advice in focusing on fundamentals and not scores. (Truth be told . . . the exercises from that book brought me to a 98 average in timed and rapid . . . and a couple of 100's under match pressure.) Jon Eulette's tutelage, along with switching to a High Standard Victor / Ultradot 30MM have brought me this far in 22.
dsandula- Posts : 72
Join date : 2013-08-20
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
So are you only aspiring to reach master shooting the 22?
DavidR- Admin
- Posts : 3032
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 70
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
It can be done! I shot my first 285 in practice last night with 95 in SF, TF & RF. (Likely could have done better had I been shooting CCI Standard Velocity. I was shooting Remington crap ammo for practice . . . concentrating on technique and the little red dot trying not to think about score.) The 3 keys for me are trigger control, trigger control and trigger control. I'll work to maintain and improve on 22 and begin again with my 38 when my 1911 slide and new mount come back from John Chernick of BME Scope Mounts in a week or two.
dsandula- Posts : 72
Join date : 2013-08-20
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
I did a lot of dry fire- about 200 per day for a good 2 years. It was not too much.
davekp- Posts : 315
Join date : 2011-06-11
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Are you talking about literally seeing the letter "X" that's printed in the center of the target? I can't do that at 50 yards without a spotting scope. Or are you talking about visualizing the result of a perfectly executed shot plan?Dave C. wrote:See the X.
Orpanaut- Posts : 187
Join date : 2015-08-06
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Orpanaut wrote:Are you talking about literally seeing the letter "X" that's printed in the center of the target? I can't do that at 50 yards without a spotting scope. Or are you talking about visualizing the result of a perfectly executed shot plan?Dave C. wrote:See the X.
It's both a "Mental State" and visually seeing the X. I was once told "If you focus intensely enough the X will reveal itself to you even at 50 yards". There is a lot of noise though, like that damn red dot darting around the target distracting you!
- Dave
dronning- Posts : 2581
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 70
Location : Lakeville, MN
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
I was watching this thread and hoping it would evolve a little more. The original poster posed a great question. I've watched many shooters reach this point and then struggle for years, while others work their way though to Master and High Master.
Beginning shooters have a lot of things to work on just getting shots on the target and then getting a group and then getting closer to the center. Shooting 98's on the short line is a great place to start from to get to Master.
As the poster said, the issue with most shooters at this point is generally 50 yd shooting (and consistently scoring well at 50 yards). Now remember, the group size will generally be 4 times times (not twice) the size at 25 yards for most shooters. That's because the shooting errors are angular, not positional. Therefore the solution is removing angular issues, not generally holding issues.
So, for shooting at 50 yards we must work on holding the pistol "parallel" or more aligned with the line of sight and reduce the actions that twist or cause the pistol to angle off the intended alignment. Wobble is ok and inevitable, pushing the muzzle right, left, up or down must be identified and overcome.
So at this point in progress, I generally suggest going back to the basics, but with the knowledge the shooter has gained to this point. Break the shot down into the simple parts and steps and work on those again from the new level and perspective.
Train on alignment, that is holding the pistol perfectly parallel while dryfiring.
Train on trigger process, watch the sight and dot and make sure the trigger finger is not moving the dot or sights outside the normal wobble.
Train on grip, good, consistent pressure throughout the shot, don't let that trigger finger make the other fingers move or increase pressure.
Find the specific items to help and train on each of those individually.
Lastly, at this point I generally mention the shooter should not become enamored with new gadgets, guns, loads or any other extraneous items. Yes, we might find some better things along the way, and that's ok. But the issues are generally with the shooter at this point.
Anyway, hope this helps. Please feel free to post me if you have any specific questions.
Respectfully,
Cecil
Beginning shooters have a lot of things to work on just getting shots on the target and then getting a group and then getting closer to the center. Shooting 98's on the short line is a great place to start from to get to Master.
As the poster said, the issue with most shooters at this point is generally 50 yd shooting (and consistently scoring well at 50 yards). Now remember, the group size will generally be 4 times times (not twice) the size at 25 yards for most shooters. That's because the shooting errors are angular, not positional. Therefore the solution is removing angular issues, not generally holding issues.
So, for shooting at 50 yards we must work on holding the pistol "parallel" or more aligned with the line of sight and reduce the actions that twist or cause the pistol to angle off the intended alignment. Wobble is ok and inevitable, pushing the muzzle right, left, up or down must be identified and overcome.
So at this point in progress, I generally suggest going back to the basics, but with the knowledge the shooter has gained to this point. Break the shot down into the simple parts and steps and work on those again from the new level and perspective.
Train on alignment, that is holding the pistol perfectly parallel while dryfiring.
Train on trigger process, watch the sight and dot and make sure the trigger finger is not moving the dot or sights outside the normal wobble.
Train on grip, good, consistent pressure throughout the shot, don't let that trigger finger make the other fingers move or increase pressure.
Find the specific items to help and train on each of those individually.
Lastly, at this point I generally mention the shooter should not become enamored with new gadgets, guns, loads or any other extraneous items. Yes, we might find some better things along the way, and that's ok. But the issues are generally with the shooter at this point.
Anyway, hope this helps. Please feel free to post me if you have any specific questions.
Respectfully,
Cecil
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
msmith44 likes this post
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Cecil very good write up.
At SAFS in 2013 our instructor drove this point home when he said that if you keep the gun, wrist arm, aligned during the trigger pull there is no way you could miss the black at 50 yards. He then proceeded to take his hat off and had the first shooter point and hold in the center of his hat to make his point. He said "I have a big head but it's not bigger than the 50 yard black, and look how small your wobble is inside that hat! You keep everything aligned and as your wobble begins to settle start the trigger pull without disrupting alignment and you will shoot a 9 or better".
He finished up with " Don't worry about the 10 ring the 10's will come. It's that easy no need to make it harder than it is".
- Dave
At SAFS in 2013 our instructor drove this point home when he said that if you keep the gun, wrist arm, aligned during the trigger pull there is no way you could miss the black at 50 yards. He then proceeded to take his hat off and had the first shooter point and hold in the center of his hat to make his point. He said "I have a big head but it's not bigger than the 50 yard black, and look how small your wobble is inside that hat! You keep everything aligned and as your wobble begins to settle start the trigger pull without disrupting alignment and you will shoot a 9 or better".
He finished up with " Don't worry about the 10 ring the 10's will come. It's that easy no need to make it harder than it is".
- Dave
dronning- Posts : 2581
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 70
Location : Lakeville, MN
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
So, for shooting at 50 yards we must work on holding the pistol "parallel" or more aligned with the line of sight and reduce the actions that twist or cause the pistol to angle off the intended alignment. Wobble is ok and inevitable, pushing the muzzle right, left, up or down must be identified and overcome.
Well this would explain some of the groups I get and thanks for bringing this up Cecil I'm working on it.
Well this would explain some of the groups I get and thanks for bringing this up Cecil I'm working on it.
Skid- Posts : 281
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 62
Location : Northern Lower Mi
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
It's all right here
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm
Been there for years.
1. Angular Shift Error: If the shooter does not observe correct aiming (maintaining the top surface of the centered front sight on a level with the top of the rear sight and equal light space on each side of the front sight) there will be few accurate shots. Most often, he locates the front sight in a different position In the rear notch. This accounts for a greater dispersion of shots on the target, since the bullets will deviate In the direction In which the front sight is positioned In the notch. (Figure 2-2). This aiming error is known as angular shift error.
Figure 2-2. Displacement of the Bullet When There Is Angular Shift Error in the Alignment of the Front Sight.
2. Parallel Shift Error: If the hold (arc of movement) is deviating In near parallel error from the center of the aiming area, the shooter should know that these deflections will not lower the score to the extent of angular shift error. Therefore, sight alignment is the most critical of the two. Thus, the accuracy of a shot depends mainly upon the shooter's ability to consistently maintain correct sight alignment. The main effort should be toward keeping your sights aligned, Holding the pistol perfectly still is desirable but It is not mandatory.
Figure 2-3, Displacement of the Bullet When The Pistol is Shifted: (a) Parallel, (b) Angular
Figure 2-4a, Impossible! The Human Eye Cannot Focus On A Close-UP Object and A Distant Object Simultaneously.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm
Been there for years.
1. Angular Shift Error: If the shooter does not observe correct aiming (maintaining the top surface of the centered front sight on a level with the top of the rear sight and equal light space on each side of the front sight) there will be few accurate shots. Most often, he locates the front sight in a different position In the rear notch. This accounts for a greater dispersion of shots on the target, since the bullets will deviate In the direction In which the front sight is positioned In the notch. (Figure 2-2). This aiming error is known as angular shift error.
Figure 2-2. Displacement of the Bullet When There Is Angular Shift Error in the Alignment of the Front Sight.
2. Parallel Shift Error: If the hold (arc of movement) is deviating In near parallel error from the center of the aiming area, the shooter should know that these deflections will not lower the score to the extent of angular shift error. Therefore, sight alignment is the most critical of the two. Thus, the accuracy of a shot depends mainly upon the shooter's ability to consistently maintain correct sight alignment. The main effort should be toward keeping your sights aligned, Holding the pistol perfectly still is desirable but It is not mandatory.
Figure 2-3, Displacement of the Bullet When The Pistol is Shifted: (a) Parallel, (b) Angular
Figure 2-4a, Impossible! The Human Eye Cannot Focus On A Close-UP Object and A Distant Object Simultaneously.
Jack H- Posts : 2686
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 75
Location : Oregon
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Here is a question ive been thinking about. Dot or Target? many opinions as to which we should be focusing on using a red dot. I shoot with prescription glasses and seem to switch from target to dot and back. I can see the 50 yard bull very clear and crisp, can even if the light is right see bullet holes as bullet enters, Without my prescription glasses the bull is still round just not hyper focus. Would it be better to continue like I am or just use standard shooting glasses and concentrate on the dot only ?
DavidR- Admin
- Posts : 3032
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 70
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Zins says target. Ed Hall says look at the dot to perfect the trigger but then look at the target.
mspingeld- Admin
- Posts : 833
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 64
Location : New Jersey
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Majority of top level shooters I know look at dot. Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.
Jon
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Jon Eulette wrote:Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.
+1
I have been working this mental approach hard lately, with good results. I have to remember to do it, though. That's what my journal is for.
A short memory is a blessing and a curse in shooting
john bickar- Posts : 2250
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
DavidR wrote:Dot or Target? many opinions as to which we should be focusing on using a red dot.
Conventional (and
DavidR wrote:I ... seem to switch from target to dot and back.
This is the opposite of that
john bickar- Posts : 2250
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Need Advice To Reach Master
Jon Eulette wrote:Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.
Jon
+∞
I was told this by a HM at a BE seminar, and my personal best score shot up (no pun intended) almost 20 points.
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