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Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.

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Post by lanjo 3/16/2021, 9:22 pm

Hi All,

I think I finally got my Model 41 running well enough to avoid FTE.  Part of the solution is to add a touch of oil on the top round. I am unsure if this will cause problems with the gun over many years of doing it.  Has anyone put oil on the top round this for extended periods of time (10+ years)?  Any problems aquired over this time?

I am currently using Rem Oil for this.  It has Teflon in it.  I would assume the Teflon would build up over time and clog the chamber.  Any suggestions on the type of oil to use for this?

Best,

Joe

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Post by john bickar 3/16/2021, 11:58 pm

You're fine.
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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/17/2021, 6:30 am

NEVER oil any ammunition period end of conversation.  The resulting increase in chamber pressure can be catastrophic.
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Post by STEVE SAMELAK 3/17/2021, 7:33 am

Time for the popcorn!!!   bounce
JMO...I think the oil trick is just a patch hiding a larger problem, it may get you thru the match but I would invest in further  investigation and find the real problem.
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Post by xman 3/17/2021, 8:47 am

I have been told that too..to oil the top round to "fix" my failure to fully eject. It has helped some but not a total cure. 

I am going the new extractor route as my fired cases are coming out about 3/4 of the way and the extractor is not finishing the job.

I do not have a topbridge on my M41, it is a Clark STC upper and the oil sprays up into the rear sight glass and needs to be cleaned off after nearly every string and periodically during SF.

The oiling helps about 50% of the time. But not a long term fix.

See my post "Beloved M41 is in the shop"
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Post by joy2shoot 3/17/2021, 9:22 am

Warning. I may sound like I know what I am talking about, but my wife respectfully disagrees.
 
The reason cases are made from a relatively soft metal (brass) is to allow the case to expand inside the chamber when firing. This is intentional because it ensures a well-sealed chamber, which is what you want.
 
When you put oil on ammo, then as the slide closes and the cartridge is inserted into the chamber, oil is spread
around the walls of the chamber. This works against a well-sealed chamber.
 
Will this help with the extraction of the spent case? The answer is Yes for the wrong reason. Because of the oil on the walls of the chamber, the spent case is not as tightly sealed as it should be. Thus, it is easier to remove.
 
Here is what the M41 owner’s manual says about FTEs. “Some brands of ammunition may cause difficulty in extracting spent cartridge cases from the cylinder or chamber. If this situation occurs, thoroughly clean the cylinder charge holes or chamber with solvent. If this condition persists, we recommend changing to another brand of ammunition.”
 
I would add that after cleaning the chamber, dry it. And if after using different brands of ammo you still have FTE, have a qualified gunsmith look at the extractor and extractor tension.

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Post by Aprilian 3/17/2021, 9:31 am

Len had a really good post on his theory about the bottom of the bolt not being lubricated is what the oil on the top round addresses.   https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10174-sw-41-stove-piping#87997
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Post by xman 3/17/2021, 9:45 am

Lets see M41 has FTFE /failure to fully extract from the chamber.

Cleaned chamber ...Check.  Hoppes and Shooters Choice Multiple passes
Use different brand of ammo/dry chamber ... Check. CCI SV, Aquila SE SV and Eley Target
Get the M41 to a qualified gunsmith ... Check. Given a Volquartsen extractor to install and inspect spring tension.
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Post by john bickar 3/17/2021, 10:06 am

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!

Well, ain't that the truth. Smile

I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
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Post by 7tcu 3/17/2021, 10:25 am

It works, put the drop of oil on the case right behind the bullet. I had to do this for the first 400 or 500 rounds on my new 41 and then one day I forgot to do this and it started to function without any. I did not worry about pressure
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Post by bruce martindale 3/17/2021, 12:06 pm

"Oil it" Allen Fulford. Look him up, he ain't no piker.

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Post by whitez06 3/17/2021, 2:14 pm

Seems some people don't understand hydraulic pressure MHOP

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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/17/2021, 2:14 pm

john bickar wrote:
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!

Well, ain't that the truth. Smile

I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
 Model 41 - oil on the top round long term. 1f617
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Post by xman 3/17/2021, 2:42 pm

7tcu wrote:It works, put the drop of oil on the case right behind the bullet. I had to do this for the first 400 or 500 rounds on my new 41 and then one day I forgot to do this and it started to function without any. I did not worry about pressure
When I was advised by a Master shooter he demonstrated how to oil up the top bullet in the magazine. He placed a silver of oil/lube from the rim to the bullet tip.

Seemed like a lot to me. It worked sporadically but from the chamber face to the bolt face was swimming with lube/oil. It cause another problem. The excess oil was being propelled out of the loading chamber and micro droplets were coating the rear sight optic. My upper has no bridge, it is an open loading port.
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Post by john bickar 3/17/2021, 3:48 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:
john bickar wrote:
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!

Well, ain't that the truth. Smile

I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
 Model 41 - oil on the top round long term. 1f617

Model 41 - oil on the top round long term. 1f617
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Post by PhotoEscape 3/17/2021, 5:34 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:NEVER oil any ammunition period end of conversation.  The resulting increase in chamber pressure can be catastrophic.

2nd to JB - "I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience."

I oil entire stuck when shooting certain ammo (i.e. Federal GM and some other) out of my 6" Kart!  That represents more than 2/3rd of 19048 rounds fired through this gun as of today.

AP
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Post by GME 3/18/2021, 11:22 pm

This discussion got me thinking.  I have a 35+ year old Mod 41.  I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo.  Seems to work fine in my 41.  However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them.  Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.  

So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?     confused

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Post by xman 3/19/2021, 12:41 am

GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking.  I have a 35+ year old Mod 41.  I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo.  Seems to work fine in my 41.  However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them.  Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.  

So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?     confused

Gary
I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.
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Post by Dr.Don 3/19/2021, 9:05 am

I'm with KC on this. And so was Jerry Keefer.
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Post by Wobbley 3/19/2021, 11:47 am

xman wrote:
GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking.  I have a 35+ year old Mod 41.  I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo.  Seems to work fine in my 41.  However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them.  Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.  

So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?     confused

Gary
I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.
A bit of a misconception here, I think.  The typical 22LR bullet lube is a wax that the loaded round has been dipped into a molten pot thereof to apply it.  It congeals as a thin coating. When the round is fired, it gets squeezed everywhere, hence the goo that you get to clean off the bolt and breech face.  SK is dipping into a (most likely synthetic) oil, again the excess gets squeezed out into the action.  (It has to go somewhere).  Gun oils at room temperature have viscosities around 10-20 centistokes.  Which is pretty light.  Oil on the top loaded rounds will tend to thin the residual goo left in the chamber and aid in extraction.  Any increase in bolt thrust or pressure is within limits.  22LR operates at around 25000 psi.  An oily chamber won’t increase the pressures beyond 10% if that much considering it’s coated in waxy goo anyway.
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Post by xman 3/19/2021, 12:32 pm

Wobbley wrote:
xman wrote:
GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking.  I have a 35+ year old Mod 41.  I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo.  Seems to work fine in my 41.  However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them.  Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.  

So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?     confused

Gary
I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.
A bit of a misconception here, I think.  The typical 22LR bullet lube is a wax that the loaded round has been dipped into a molten pot thereof to apply it.  It congeals as a thin coating. When the round is fired, it gets squeezed everywhere, hence the goo that you get to clean off the bolt and breech face.  SK is dipping into a (most likely synthetic) oil, again the excess gets squeezed out into the action.  (It has to go somewhere).  Gun oils at room temperature have viscosities around 10-20 centistokes.  Which is pretty light.  Oil on the top loaded rounds will tend to thin the residual goo left in the chamber and aid in extraction.  Any increase in bolt thrust or pressure is within limits.  22LR operates at around 25000 psi.  An oily chamber won’t increase the pressures beyond 10% if that much considering it’s coated in waxy goo anyway.

What she said +1
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Post by john bickar 3/19/2021, 2:18 pm

Wobbley wrote:centistoke

I found my word of the day for today. "The centistoke is a unit of measurement of kinematic viscosity."

I'm going to give myself bonus points if I can squeeze it into a work conversation.

E.g., "Anything you can to do reduce the friction on this process by even a centistoke would be appreciated."

I'll report back.
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Post by rburk 3/19/2021, 3:37 pm

john bickar wrote:
Wobbley wrote:centistoke

I found my word of the day for today. "The centistoke is a unit of measurement of kinematic viscosity."

I'm going to give myself bonus points if I can squeeze it into a work conversation.

E.g., "Anything you can to do reduce the friction on this process by even a centistoke would be appreciated."

I'll report back.

That is poisetively excellent!

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Post by john bickar 3/19/2021, 3:54 pm

Wobbley wrote:waxy goo

I'm giving myself double points if I can work this phrase into a work conversation today.
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Post by james r chapman 3/19/2021, 4:01 pm

john bickar wrote:
Wobbley wrote:waxy goo

I'm giving myself double points if I can work this phrase into a work conversation today.

A Facebook ad for Ear Wax Removal devices!

With pictures!!!
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