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Wrong Target - correct procedure

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Wrong Target - correct procedure Empty Wrong Target - correct procedure

Post by RoyDean Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:02 pm

Not sure whether it is early onset of Alzheimer's or just getting old, but I make too many stupid mistakes! Yesterday, for the second time in my brief Bullseye career, I found myself shooting on the wrong type of target in a match.

I was alert and took my time preparing my set of targets for the Precision Pistol 900, but I can only surmise that the previous days International matches caused me to forget about SF vs TF/RF targets. Anyhow, when I scoped my first shot of the first Slow Fire target of the day I was pleased to see the hole right in the middle of the X-ring, but then immediately realised that I had put up a TF/RF target - wrong!

I made the gun safe, stepped back and asked the Match Director to step out behind the doors so that we would not disturb anyone. Explained what had happened and the conclusion we came to was that the entire target of 10 shots would be null and void. OK, totally my fault.

I went back in and fired a couple more "sighters" on the bad target with the intention of carrying on and completing the match, but my heart was not in it. So I retrieved the target at the appropriate time and quietly packed up my box, then left without disturbing anyone. Wasted a lot of time, driving and hotel cost, but my fault, C'est la vie!

This morning I thought that I would read through the current NRA Precision Pistol Rules and see exactly what is said about such circumstances. The only paragraph that I could find that seems to deal with this is:-

14.7 Hits on Wrong Target or Bullseye - 
Hits on the wrong target or bullseye are scored as misses. 
A wrong target is defined as a target other than that:
(a) Assigned to the firing point upon which the competitor is squadded (assigned).
(b) Intended to be used for the match, stage and distance in that event concerned.

So, if I am correct that this is indeed the only relevant rule, it seems to me that I could have retrieved the incorrect target after one shot, replaced it with a clean correct SF target and continued to fire 9 shots on that fresh target which would then have been the score of record. Of course that is assuming that I could indeed complete the target change and the 9 shots within the permitted time. I would then continue with the match as normal.

Is this interpretation correct?

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Post by xman Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:12 pm

Are not the scoring rings the same size on both SF and TF/RF targets? The size of the black is different.

Lones Wigger the small bore legend once hung a 100 yard target upside down and was it NOT DQ'd and the fired score was accepted.
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Post by RoyDean Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:27 pm

This was a 50ft Indoor "Gallery" course using a B-2 target for SF and a B-3 target for TF/RF. The blacks are the same size, but the scoring rings are quite different. There is no X ring on a B-2 which is what instantly alerted me to my mistake.

Since it was a Gallery Indoor match I did have the ability to retrieve the target from the firing line - that would not normally be the case for an Outdoor match or on a range that was not equipped with individual target retrieval system.

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Post by CR10X Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:32 pm

Precision Pistol / Bullseye uses targets with different size "bullseye black" and so targets can be easily distinguished on the line, thereby giving the shooter some "advantage" over other shooters.  As noted other size targets have same size black but different size scoring rings. There have been many targets "zeroed" for wrong size / type when the shooter completed the fired string.  

In this particular situation (slow fire) my personal opinion and using the options available as a Match Director, my observation is:

Yes, at the point the shooter realized and informed the Match Official that the wrong target was posted, I would have provided that opportunity to replace the target or otherwise rectify the situation (or provide remaining time on a refire string).  And the shooter only loses the 10 points for the first shot or per shot for any shots fired on that target (since this was slow fire).  

My process would have been:

I would have stopped the slow fire match, made note of the elapsed time and made the range safe for the replacement of the target.  After target replaced, continued the match with the remaining time and the shooter would only be able to fire any remaining shots.  The shooter would be easily scored since the replacement target would have less than 10 shots, thereby incorporating the shots fired on the "incorrect" target as misses.

My personal opinion and how I would handle it.   (Some situations just have to be learned through experience, and yes, I've had to handle this issue and try to be fair and follow the rules.) 

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:51 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by xman Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:36 pm

I was thinking it might have been a gallery course.  I would have retrieved the target, hung the correct one and fired the 9 as best you could with the remaining time. Then let a Jury or ask for a Jury ruling. Assuming a Jury could be assembled by match end.

Just a Marksmans opinion ..what the hell do I know ..LOL
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Post by james r chapman Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:56 pm

Either that, or a range alibi for the lone shooter, and given 9 minutes for the refire of 9 shots???
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Post by CR10X Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:16 pm

I try to use the process of cease firing for that string (SF), change target and then proceed with remaining time for all and remaining shots for shooter.  Actually takes less time than doing a range alibi, etc. 

And I've learned to check the targets on the line before I return from down range after the shooters are done scoring.  I usually catch most these problems then (although I do occasionally get distracted and miss one now and again.). 

CR

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Post by radjag Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:21 pm

Thanks Cecil and Jim.

I am certainly not complaining or criticising my Match Director, we agreed on the decision at the time. It was my mistake after all. But it is good to know what the correct procedure(s) actually is.

Hope that I do not do it again, but never say never!

Thanks.

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Post by SteveT Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:36 pm

My interpretation of the rules is that the match director was correct. In the strict interpretation of the rules any shots on that target would be wrong and so you should get a 0 for the target. I don't think it's stated in the rules, but I don't think the other shooters on the line should be disturbed because of one shooters mistake, unless it is a safety issue.

That said, most match directors I know would let you re-shoot that target at the end of the relay or with the next relay if there is one. We need to have some flexibility and allow new shooters to learn the ropes.
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Post by chiz1180 Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:52 pm

I would agree with Steve as far as interpretation. If you looked at the target after the shot you really can't call it a range alibi, especially if the shooter posted the target. Most typically in most matches I have been participated, typically the person calling the line typically reminds the shooters check that the targets are good during the prep period. 

Personally if I had noticed that I had shot my first shot on the wrong target, I would not have taken additional shots on the target. Stuff happens, I once had a double alibi (dirty gun) that trashed the entire rapid fire match, entirely my fault, and may have messed up a personal best aggregate. All matches are learning experiences, take what you learn in each one and apply it to the next one.

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Post by xman Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:55 pm

chiz1180 wrote: All matches are learning experiences, take what you learn in each one and apply it to the next one.
+1
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Post by Ed Hall Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:28 am

I, too, would have avoided disturbing other shooters, but would have allowed a "continuation of fire" on the proper target at the end of that match or during a normal break, depending on how the official scoring was being done.*  The way I would have approached it would be to first mark the time at which I was notified of the issue.  I would then have had the shooter wait for the rest of that target and then continue with the match in a normal fashion.  At the first available opportunity, I would have had the shooter "continue" that stage on the proper target, firing the remaining shots in the time that was left for the original string.

* If the stat office scoring is being done on a Match basis, then the proper time for the continuation is after the current match, but prior to the next.  If the stat office scoring is done later, then the continuation can be done during a normal break such as lunch.

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Post by mspingeld Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:41 am

I was at a match where a newer shooter did the same thing. It was not a registered or regional match, just a local indoor 2700. It was agreed to score the target as best they could by holding a correct target, folded in half, over the shot target and giving the shooter a score.

As the shooter was newer and not a contender to place in the match, I was ok with this. Probably not appropriate for an experienced shooter.

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Post by james r chapman Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:29 am

Plastic overlays are also available to do just that!
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Post by RoyDean Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:33 am

Interesting - thanks for all of the responses.

There are clearly two "camps" of opinion here (and I got some feedback offline from another expert).

I hope that I never repeat the mistake, but, if I do, then I will stop firing, clear the gun and step back. Note the time. Then quietly inform the Match Director of what has happened and ask him to note the time too.

I will then continue and complete the relay. I will then ask the Match Director to allow me to re-shoot the target with 9 or however many shots that were unfired and ask for that target to be the score of record.

Some Match Directors may not agree, but it seems to be a reasonable and logical approach given the lack of clarity in the Rules as written.

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Post by javaduke Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:22 pm

If I remember correctly, a few years ago at Perry someone had a wrong target posted during the first slow fire, so that shooter was given an opportunity to shoot 10 shots after the last rapid fire string. I don't remember if he had any shots on the wrong target though.

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Post by james r chapman Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:07 pm

At Perry, they usually hold the line for the lone walk, in the hot sun, to change the target in the driving rain, while the entire line waits in 30 mph winds, for YOUR return!
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Post by SteveT Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:41 pm

javaduke wrote:If I remember correctly, a few years ago at Perry someone had a wrong target posted during the first slow fire, so that shooter was given an opportunity to shoot 10 shots after the last rapid fire string. I don't remember if he had any shots on the wrong target though.
If the wrong target is identified before shooting starts, the shooter should be allowed the opportunity to correct it. If it is found after shooting has started, it is a shooter's error (no alibi). At Camp Perry the range officials are pretty good about looking up and down the line to check targets before restarting commands.
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Post by CFPlinker Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:22 pm


Another rule that applies in this case.
18.15 (e) That when targets are framed by the competitor, it is the competitor’s responsibility to frame the correct target for the specific match and distance. (See Rule l4.7(b)).

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Post by xman Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:42 pm

Does not suggest what the penalty/remedy is if shots are fired on the wrong hung/framed target. I would leave that up to the MD.
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