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CMP 2022 Rule Books

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Wes Lorenz
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Post by chiz1180 Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:52 am

First topic message reminder :

CMP released the latest editions of the rule books.

https://thecmp.org/cmp-2022-competition-rules-are-now-online/?fbclid=IwAR1QtgfkXr0hM40pV8uAKFDFL43hJuFiFxNl1SKYCHlEEwkfcHYJ9EemVok


Notable changes from a first glance, Service Revolver is now an EIC and is the President’s course of fire. Air matches also have their own rule book too.
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Post by RoyDean Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:49 pm

I have just sent this entire thread to competitions@thecmp.org

Prefaced by this message:-
"Firstly, let me say that I think the CMP does a wonderful job of organising all kinds of rifle, pistol and other events and programs which definitely attract much needed newcomers into the sport. And is particularly pleasing to me (as a non-US citizen) that there is no obvious political overtone or agenda - unlike the other organising body!
Considering the C19 situation and the fact that it was CMP's first "solo run" I thought that Camp Perry last summer was magnificent - admittedly my first visit - but everyone I spoke to had an overall positive view - excellent - well done.
But, the 2022 Pistol Rules seem to have created several unnecessary new issues and complications. I am relatively new to US Bullseye Shooting and so I am not the best person to offer a thorough critique, but there has been a lively debate over the past few days on the Bullseye-L Forum, which is very popular with many of the avid Bullseye shooters. I know that Hendo is looking into things, but just so that more parties get to share opinions, here is a copy of the current active thread. FYI."

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Post by RoyDean Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:49 am

I got an instant response from Jim Henderson. Here it is:-

Hello!
Thanks for reaching out about the new 2022 Pistol Rules.
 
The rules that a lot of the posters in your email are talking about have been changed. 
 
Please refer to the web site www.thecmp.org in a few days. The changes should be up by then. The typos in the previously posted rules were my fault.

I'd also ask a favor of you that when you see the corrected version, and happen to be in the forums, that you refer people to the website so they can see the rules for themselves. 
 
The only changes from the NRA rules are the Service Revolver .45 trigger weight (yes 4.0lbs, all others are still 2.5lbs), the minimum CF Match Gun weight (2.5lbs from 2.0lbs), and the inclusion of any safe ammo in the Service Revolver. 
 
I hope I've helped explain at least some of the confusion.
 
Thanks again for the kind words, we are doing our level best to make things better. 
 
Jim Henderson
CMP Pistol Coordinator

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Post by TonyH Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:25 pm

Thank you Roy for taking the initiative and Jim Henderson for the quick response and action!
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Post by james r chapman Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:51 pm

Time to dig out that Model 24, .44 special !!!
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Post by Olde Pilot Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:55 pm

Respectively submitted: 4lb SA pull on a revolver is nuts.

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Post by Wobbley Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:47 pm

Notice that it says SERVICE revolver.  If the objective is to have SERVICE pistols and revolvers on the same line for the same rewards, same trigger pull.
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Post by james r chapman Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:25 pm

Notice .45 only is 4#
9,38,41,44 are still 2.5#
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Post by chiz1180 Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:49 pm

Wobbley wrote:Notice that it says SERVICE revolver.  If the objective is to have SERVICE pistols and revolvers on the same line for the same rewards, same trigger pull.
Ass the rules are written, you can shoot a Service Revolver for a Service Pistol Match using jacketed ammo. However Service Revolver has its own course of fire in which you can use any safe ammo and follows the Presidents Pistol course rather than the National Match Course. 

So yes you can have a Service Revolver compete in an Service Pistol Match in which case yes if you are shooting a 45 caliber revolver, to be "fair" to the autoloaders sure 4lbs single action makes some sense. However, for a separate course of fire/badge program the requirement for a 45 revolver to have a 4lb trigger seems to make less sense. Especially when the cut score requirements for points for Service Revolver is significantly lower than that of Service pistol. 

I have not seen this mentioned yet here (may have missed it) but some changes were also made relative to EIC points, for those chasing a badge it might be worth looking at that section to stay up to date (9.4 in the book).

Regardless of my opinions on how the rules committee set up the rules, to be truth full they are probably less than perfect in more than one location,  I am glad to see further options to compete. Not really mentioned here but in addition to Service Revolver Badge program, they also added Air Pistol and Rifle badges, with an Air Match on the Calendar at Perry towards the end of Pistol week.
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Post by Slamfire Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:02 pm

james r chapman wrote:Notice .45 only is 4#
9,38,41,44 are still 2.5#

Still nuts. Too many contradicting rules. How about pull weights depending on whether the match is shot on an even or odd day.

And I disagree with four pounds minimum for 1911's. Might have been the service standard with the materials of the day (WW1 to WW2) where the sear and trigger surfaces wore quickly. But modern alloys, sear/trigger tolerances, 2.5 pound pulls on modern 1911's are safe and reliable.

I am glad they did  not require service pistols to use Whitworth threads on the jaws holding the flint!

The only appropriate requirement is "safe trigger". If the trigger is not mechanically safe than it does  not matter what the pull weight is.

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Post by Allgoodhits Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:34 pm

james r chapman wrote:Notice .45 only is 4#
9,38,41,44 are still 2.5#
I cannot find that exception in the CMP Rules as posted today. Can you direct me as to where that is?
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Post by james r chapman Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:52 pm

Maybe this?
4.2.3 Centerfire Match Pistols
Pistols and revolvers used in CMP-Sanctioned Centerfire Match Pistol Events must comply with this rule:
a) The pistol must be chambered for any centerfire cartridge that is a minimum of .32 caliber and a maximum of .45 caliber.
  41

b) Semi-automatic pistols and revolvers must have a trigger pull of at least 2.5 pounds. If a .45 Caliber Pistol is used as a Centerfire Pistol event it must have a trigger pull of at least 3.5 lbs.
4.2.4 .45 Caliber Match Pistols
Pistols and revolvers used in CMP-Sanctioned .45 Caliber Match Pistol Events must comply with this rule:
a) The pistol must be chambered for any centerfire .45 caliber pistol cartridge.
b) Semi-automatic pistols and revolvers must have a trigger pull of at least 3.5 pounds.
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Post by chiz1180 Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:03 pm

Slamfire wrote:
james r chapman wrote:Notice .45 only is 4#
9,38,41,44 are still 2.5#

Still nuts. Too many contradicting rules. How about pull weights depending on whether the match is shot on an even or odd day.

And I disagree with four pounds minimum for 1911's. Might have been the service standard with the materials of the day (WW1 to WW2) where the sear and trigger surfaces wore quickly. But modern alloys, sear/trigger tolerances, 2.5 pound pulls on modern 1911's are safe and reliable.

I am glad they did  not require service pistols to use Whitworth threads on the jaws holding the flint!

The only appropriate requirement is "safe trigger". If the trigger is not mechanically safe than it does  not matter what the pull weight is.
I believe Jim is referencing the rules (and discussed potential changes) regarding Service Revolver. The rules are not contradicting if you understand to which particular matches a particular rule is referring. 4lb trigger is for Service Pistol regardless of caliber and firearm, "Match gun" (e.g. CF/45 of a 2700) 45 trigger weight is 3.5lbs. Different matches, different rules.

Jim,

The rules you are referencing are "Match Gun"(4.2) not Service Revolver (4.1.7). Service revolver still reads 4lb minimum, likely due to the fact that a Service Revolver is eligible to be shot in a Service Pistol Match (per table 3).


Last edited by chiz1180 on Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by james r chapman Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:06 pm

Current discussion on Facebook


Good morning!!
Just an update note. 
The Match Gun trigger weights have been corrected on the CMP website. 
The only differences between what you’re shootings now and the current rules are;

A .45 Service Revolver trigger will weigh 4.0lbs.

The minimum weight for a Center Fire Match Gun is 2.5lbs, unless it is a .45acp then it is 3.5lbs.

Minimum weight for all .22lr pistols or revolvers is  is 2.0lbs.

I think that covers the current list of changes. So if you see any other things you might have questions on, please email me at jhenderson@thecmp.org.

Thank you for all the polite and professional emails and messages about the rules. It makes a conversation move along so much easier when rational discourse is involved. We are doing our best to make sure you all have a safe, fair and enjoyable time while shooting CMP matches.

PS If you’re reading this, please share with all your friends and pages.

Thank you.
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Post by Wes Lorenz Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:52 pm

Perhaps this will help: Make sure to read the Section headers carefully. "pistol can refer to revolver or pistol."

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Post by Slamfire Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:27 pm

I have a feeling these Service Revolver rules are being written so they won't affect CMP sales of original 1911's.

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Post by james r chapman Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:11 pm

Slamfire wrote:I have a feeling these Service Revolver rules are being written so they won't affect CMP sales of original 1911's.
Never seen one in a Service match.
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Post by javaduke Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:04 pm

One thing that still makes no sense to me is that a 45 revolver requirements are different between CF and 45 matches - i.e. in CF match I can shoot a .45 revolver with 2.5 pounds trigger, but in 45 match the same revolver has to have 3.5 pounds trigger. 
Wouldn't it be better if all trigger weight requirements were simply the same as the NRA ones?

UPD: seems like the table Wes created is not 100% correct, the rule 4.2.3b reads, "If a .45 Caliber Pistol is used as a Centerfire Pistol event it must have a trigger pull of at least 3.5 lbs.", and a revolver is a pistol, so a .45 revolver must have a 3.5lbs trigger no matter what phase of the match it is used in. This is my understanding.


Last edited by javaduke on Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Lightfoot Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:08 pm

Wes Lorenz wrote:Perhaps this will help: Make sure to read the Section headers carefully. "pistol can refer to revolver or pistol."

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I can't see many people taking their revolver up to 4 lbs for this once a year match.  I think it's a mistake.  I wonder what they are trying to prevent by moving wheel guns up so heavy?
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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:52 pm

Having shot “real 230gr hardball” for service pistol back in the day, I can understand the 4# trigger pull requirement. It was easy to shoot an early sustained fire shot if you didn’t train and accustom yourself to the ball recoil vs wad ammunition. Over gripping for additional recoil affects trigger squeeze. Easy to start gripping with trigger finger.
The 45 revolver is in its own league, you have to either thumb cock the hammer or double action the next shot. So recoil is not an issue in regards to the trigger pull weight: thumb cocking separate action than gripping and DA pull typically heavier than 4#.
So I think 2.5# SA is safe using a revolver 
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Post by chiz1180 Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:15 pm

james r chapman wrote:
Slamfire wrote:I have a feeling these Service Revolver rules are being written so they won't affect CMP sales of original 1911's.
Never seen one in a Service match.
I debated shooting a Model 10 in a match last year (legal per 24th edition table) but ultimately decided against it as I would likely have to argue that it was legal per the rules with an older shooters who still thinks that 1911 with 230 ball is what is required for the match. I still had to prove that the typical 185s were legal.

As far as trigger weight and relation to an early shot or errant shot. I don't buy it being a valid argument. I have seen people have early errant shots with everything from 22's, revolvers, wadguns,  to service pistols.

I am still think that the 4lb revolver requirement in in the book such that it makes "Service Revolvers" also legal for "Service Pistol". When in reality (at least from my perspective) it makes more sense to keep Service Revolver rules their own entity much like 22 EIC. It isn't one guy making the rules, it is a group of people. The paper copy of the book isn't available until march 1st. I wouldn't be surprised if revisions happened between now an then.
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Post by Wes Lorenz Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:46 pm

javaduke wrote:
UPD: seems like the table Wes created is not 100% correct, the rule 4.2.3b reads, "If a .45 Caliber Pistol is used as a Centerfire Pistol event it must have a trigger pull of at least 3.5 lbs.", and a revolver is a pistol, so a .45 revolver must have a 3.5lbs trigger no matter what phase of the match it is used in. This is my understanding.

I believe I interpreted this correctly - Re-read 4.2.3 (b) again. I do make plenty of mistakes! Just trying to get my head wrapped around this.
 
4.2.3
(b) Semi-automatic pistols and revolvers must have a trigger pull of at least 2.5 pounds. If a .45 Caliber Pistol is used as a Centerfire Pistol event it must have a trigger pull of at least 3.5 lbs.
 
The first sentence addresses pistols (<.45cal) and revolvers shall be at least 2.5lbs. 
The second sentence requires that a .45cal pistol shall be at least 3.5.


Definition of pistol - a handgun whose chamber is integral with the barrel.
Definition of revolver - a handgun with a cylinder of several chambers brought successively into line with the barrel and discharged with the same hammer.


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Post by javaduke Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:09 pm

Hmm, you may be right, but then it makes no sense, why would the same gun have different trigger weight depending on which portion of 2700 it is used at. I think CMP needs to review these. Personally I think it should be the same as NRA requirements unless it's CMP-specific, that is EIC, in which case, I agree, should be 4 pounds no matter what gun is used. Just my 2c.

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Post by Wes Lorenz Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:17 pm

CMP revision 01/09/2021 is the same as the long time NRA trigger weights. 

CMP                                                                                                   NRA
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Post by james r chapman Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:28 pm

currently a lot of discusssion with J. Henderson (cmp) on the .45 revolver trigger weight.
most smiths feel it will be very difficult to make the 4# SA trigger .
Most target revolvers had 2.5 # triggers.
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Post by Allgoodhits Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:50 pm

My $.02 

Good luck getting sufficient number of people who have a .45 revolver, willing to have the SA trigger upped to 4 lbs, and who happen to be at local match with sufficient number of others for a leg to ever be awarded.

Service Revolver is an entirely "new" category, it doesn't matter what the trigger pull weight is, as everyone is on the same plane. I don't think we need to be concerned about a revolver doubling or going full revolver. If someone while settling shoots a shot prematurely, it happens often anyway, -10 points. Another solution, require the Service Revolver be fired DA. I guaranty the DA will be in excess of 4 lbs. Don't make people modify their guns to make a 4 lb requirement on a SA revolver, when most all come from factory with less than that. Service Revolver needs to be abandoned or more sensible rules. Also, why have a different COF?
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