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Target turning between timed/rapid strings

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Post by -TT- 6/9/2022, 10:18 am

I'm looking for input on the expected behavior for target turning, for my BullseyeMatch app (https://bullseyematch.app). Currently, when configured to control a target turning system, the app "faces" the target after each closing call. The expectation is that a shooter may want to scope the target mid-round, and of course score the target after each 10-shot completion.

A user has commented that the facing/edging between the two 5-shot strings of timed and rapid can be distracting. I've seen RO's do it this way, but I'm guessing there is a bit of a local style or just personal preference, so I'm looking for input on "best practice". I'd prefer to stick to that, rather than adding a setting. One thing to note, the target can be turned manually at any time by tapping the turning indicator, so there's some flexibility here.

RO's/shooters, any feedback? Thanks!

-TT-

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Post by john bickar 6/9/2022, 10:29 am

Typically the target does not face in between 5-shot strings of a stage. I don't have the rule book at hand at the moment, so I can't quote the rule, but usually the targets edge (e.g.) after the first 5-shot string of TF and then do not face again until 3 seconds after "ready on the firing line" of the second string of TF, at which point you're sending lead downrange.
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Post by -TT- 6/9/2022, 10:56 am

Thanks, I checked the rulebook earlier and it's basically silent on the matter. It mentions edging before the "Load" call, facing at "Commence firing", and edging at "Cease firing", but it says nothing about other times.

-TT-

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Post by CR10X 6/9/2022, 11:06 am

You have to look in the section on range alibies and refires.  I'm not where I can look up the specifics right now.

But, the facing of the targets between strings allows the shooters the opportunity to view their targets after the first or second strings which can limit the shooters options.

While this is not a range alibi or issue by itself, having the targets visible will make the shooter's lose their opportunity to accept their target in the event of a range alibi (such as less time than prescribed for that string). 

Shooter's only have the opportunity to accept if they do not have the opportunity to view their targets outside of the time allowed for that string  even if it was an inadvertent mistake by the match. (Which I have done by mistake a few times at our match.)

Again in the event of a range alibi, that situation  - opportunity to see the target - becomes a mandatory refire of the target, just like when too much time is allowed.  (Like when targets face for 20 seconds on a rapid fire string.)  Seeing the target is not a range alibi by itself.

This has happened at Perry several times in the past and that was the procedure used every time but one.  That time nobody could confirm why it did not become a mandatory refine after the targets were faced and they declared a range alibi.  I was later informed that it was probably a mistake to not have a mandatory refire.

CR

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Post by -TT- 6/9/2022, 12:57 pm

CR, that's an interesting point. Facing the targets does give the shooters more information, which can change how they claim either range or regular alibis.

Section 9.12 sort-of says this:

9.12 Interruption of Fire -
(a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is inter-
rupted by some occurrence which renders it impossible
for one or more competitors to complete the string under
the conditions of the match, the Chief Range Officer will
proceed as follows. Without being permitted to examine
their targets, competitors in the relay who have been so
prevented from completing their strings will be asked if
they wish to refire or to accept their score as fired.

If there's a rule which applies, I'll definitely change the app's behavior.

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Post by John Dervis 6/9/2022, 1:42 pm

I'm not up on the rules for this situation but Cecil's answer is true.  I can tell you that the targets do not face between strings at any match I've ever been to.  In addition, most range officers will not face the targets for scoring until after the line is declared safe.  People being who they are, would not be paying attention and would likely start walking down range just because the targets faced.  It doesn't matter as much in training I suppose but I always manually face mine before heading down to score during practice.

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Post by CR10X 6/9/2022, 2:06 pm

9.12 Interruption of Fire -


(a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is interrupted by some occurrence which renders it impossible for one or more  competitors to complete the string under the conditions of the match, the Chief Range Officer will proceed as follows. Without being permitted to examine their targets, competitors in the relay who have been so prevented from completing their strings will be asked if they wish to refire or to accept their score as fired. Targets will then be scored in the usual manner for all competitors except those who have elected to refire. Without being scored, the targets of such competitors who have elected to refire will be pasted or new targets substituted and a complete string will be fired and scored. 

Unless the the targets remain edged, then as written Rule 9.12 (a) cannot be applied in the event of a range alibi since the shooters have had the option to view the targets.  

(That's how it was handled at Perry on several different occasions where 9.12 (a), Reason (2) Failure of targets to operate properly or uniformly occurred.  And when trying to correct the problem, the targets were faced to the competitors.  By doing so, even by mistake, the Referee declared a range alibi and all shooters were required to refire the target.) 

Specifically in answer to my question to the Referee later; since the targets did not remain edged, the Match operation has created a condition that did not allow the shooters to compete as per the rules governing Interruption of Fire under 9.12 (a) for the listed conditions 1 - 7 as they had the chance to see the targets and so a complete refire by all was the only option.  I have to assume that's why I've always seen the Major matches and Regionals not face the target between strings.
 
Also a couple of other comments:

(1) Keeping the targets edged between strings and until the line is called safe to score provides the MD / RO time to sort out issues, if any. 

(3) I don't think it a good idea for the target to automatically face, especially for training since it provides an incentive for the shooter to jump to scope rather that calling the shot string and reinforcing the shot / string review prior to being able to see the target.  

CR

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Post by -TT- 6/9/2022, 3:28 pm

The rules do seem to leave out some details, that can only be inferred. I agree that facing targets early would make several 9.12 conditions unenforceable.

Your (1) point is well-made. The app could avoid facing the target at the end of a string, and pause until the RO confirms it's ok to finish the round. But I need to think through how that works with an alibi round. It would take extra logic to go back to the previous string, without any new facing. Some sort of pause, with a prompt to continue or go back might work. But, the app isn't necessarily trying to do _everything_ the RO has to do, so there are limits.

On point (3), I'm not sure. The one-shot type of drill is something that people want to cycle automatically. But when training by timing a regular match, then it will behave just like #1. So, same approach I think.

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Post by CR10X 6/9/2022, 4:24 pm

Even one shot drills should keep the target edged until the next facing.  That's the real benefit of shooting one shot strings anyway.  

Admittedly I do not understand the issues with the app with respect to refire strings.  The logic should be incorporating how matches are run and the RO will always have to make some decisions based on a lot of circumstances.  Any refire strings are simply another 5 shot string on top of the two string previously fired for that match / stage (TF / RF).  Unless there is a range alibi with option to take the target or refire as discussed above.  The program should just provide an option to loop the last string again (and again) for TF or RF string or proceed to the next stage / match.  

(One more string is usual, but I have seen and had times when there were two or more additional strings needed. Shooter not ready so shot second string on alibi string and then he has an alibi; etc., etc.  25 years of shooting and running matches and just when I thought I'd seen it all, I still see things come up that I haven't seen before).  

Just wait until you go through the logic to break ties with a shot by shot scoring program.....

CR

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Post by mbmshooter 6/16/2022, 5:51 pm

TT - You asked for the "Best Practice" when operating your TF/RF sequences.  As has already been discussed by others, the RULES are silent on the specific issue you raise and, in that instance, would suggest the targets remain EDGED until the second string commands are given and targets are FACED for that string.

Cecil - I was one of the refs on that range when the situation to which you refer occurred.  However, it was the Chief Ref who made the decision to refire.  As I recall, there was one person in particular who raised quite a stink and I believe even filed a protest which was summarily rejected by the Protest Committee.

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Post by -TT- 6/19/2022, 9:13 pm

Thanks everyone. I've definitely decided to have the app leave targets edged at the end of all rounds and leave it to the RO to face them. I'm slightly considering adding some sort of dialog after each second timed/rapid to prompt for whether a refire is required. This would give the opportunity to go back to the previous second string (leaving the target(s) edged), or moving to scoring (and turning them to face). But there are some other matters to work out first.

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Post by -TT- 6/28/2022, 10:07 am

On further reflection, I've decided to take a simple approach that doesn't require extra taps. After any slow, 2nd timed or 2nd rapid, the app will pause and count down a ~5 second timer before advancing. It will display "Touch to refire" during this interval - if you tap the screen (or click the remote), the target will remain edged and the round will repeat. If you do nothing, it will face the target for scoring, and always move to prepare for the next round - like it does today. I don't expect the pause after Slow to be used much, but it's consistent with Timed and Rapid, and consistency is good.

It feels pretty seamless, and allows for better matches. Without trying to completely replace the RO!

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