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Starting to load 9mm…. Something weird

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Allgoodhits
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Axehandle
S148
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Starting to load 9mm…. Something weird  Empty Starting to load 9mm…. Something weird

Post by bmize1 7/1/2022, 9:37 pm

So I picked up what I assume is a pre RO. NM frame, adj sights etc. very little wear from use, probably because the trigger was garbage. 
Barrel has no perceivable movement down to lugs, but not a tight lockup, smooth like my RRA with 20k through it.
Dropped in a KC roll trigger kit, changed bushing to an exact fit one I had in the box and .200” pin.

First batch of ammo to test is 115 zero jhp, 4.5 tightgroup, 1.100”

Will not hold x at 25 from sandbag.
Figured I need to bump up powder and play with crimp.

Picked up fired brass and the firing pin marks on the primers are, to say the least, strange……

I’m far from new to reloading and this is not something I’ve seen before that I remember.

Thoughts/ideas?


Starting to load 9mm…. Something weird  Ef931810

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Post by chiz1180 7/1/2022, 9:49 pm

I have found 9mm to be a bit more demanding to load in regards to powder, bullet, and OAL. I have only had so-so performance with titegroup in 9mm (not saying a good load isn't possible), though I load 124gr projectiles.
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Post by Wobbley 7/1/2022, 11:01 pm

Need primer make and model, from the image I’m guessing Federal or CCI.  The good news is that the pressure seems to be ok.  The bad news is that the primer cups seem to be thin.  Standard thickness for small pistol are .017 thick cups, but some are harder than others.  Federal are very soft.  Cc1 400 small RIFLE primers have .020 thick cups.  You could try them.
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Post by S148 7/2/2022, 1:04 am

Which Zero bullet?  The 115 RN JHP, or the 115 Conical JHP?

What other powders do you have?

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Post by bmize1 7/2/2022, 3:21 am

RN JHP

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Post by Axehandle 7/2/2022, 7:01 am

Playing with some 9 here too... Revolver stuff for now.   231 and a mix of bullets.   Seeing pressure signs when I don't think there should be any.

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Post by JIMPGOV 7/2/2022, 7:19 am

YOU WILL FIND THAT THE FACTORY SPRINGFIELD 9MM BARREL WONT BE ACCURATE. I BELIEVE THE BORE IS TO BIG.  HARD TO EVEN GET 3 INCHES AT 25YDS. .356 BULLETS ARE BETTER THAN THE .355. A FRIEND OF MINE RETURNED HIS TO SPRINGFIELD . HIS WOULDN'T HOLD 5 INCHES AT 25YDS. THEY RETURNED IT STATING IT WAS WITHIN SPEC. WITHOUT RE-BARRELING THE PISTOL IT WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A PLINKER. JP

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Post by Bigtrout 7/2/2022, 7:44 am

bmize1 wrote:RN JHP
Conical JHP in my stock RO hold less then an inch at 25.  At 50 things really spread out to almost 4".  My S&W 986 5" holds 2" at 50.  Both have a 3 lb. pull.  FWIW.  
Dave
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Post by Rodger Barthlow 7/2/2022, 8:37 am

Slug the barrel with a lead bullet and measure the bullet diameter, that will tell you if it is over sized or not, then buy and load bullets of that diameter.
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Post by jglenn21 7/2/2022, 8:46 am

Rebarrel it with a 1-18 twist KKM and enjoy your pistol.
115 and 124 gr XTP  or Magnus jacketed.

personally i run 3.5 in my 9mm EIC pistol using 124hr. 4.0 with the 115s
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Post by NukeMMC 7/2/2022, 11:19 am

I have a 9mm RO I acquired about a month ago with serial # NM464XXX.  I also installed a better-fit bushing (EGW thick flange based on my slide and barrel measurements), EGW 0.200" slide stop and I replaced the Titanium firing pin with an EGW 0.068" (my 45acp RO uses a 0.075" firing pin just fine)with a Wolff extra power FP spring.  It holds 10-ring at 25yds with 115HAP and 3.8gr of Bullseye.  At 50 it's 3-4" so far, even up to 4.2gr of Bullseye.  I need to find some Power Pistol, I guess.  It is getting in line for a rebarrel to 38SC.

Try a regular firing pin if yours is Ti. That light FP with heavy spring (making it "drop safe" may just be rebounding fast enough to allow primer cup flow.
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Post by bmize1 7/2/2022, 11:46 am

Appreciate the suggestions.
It is fed primers. I’ll try some Win and magtech  and changing the firing pin also.
Primer flow from the FP returning two fast sounds very logical to me.
As I said, I’m new to pistol load development.
I’ll try some Power Pistol and BE next along with some 124’s

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Post by bmize1 7/2/2022, 11:50 am

NukeMMC wrote:I have a 9mm RO I acquired about a month ago with serial # NM464XXX. 

Mine is about 6k behind yours.

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Post by NukeMMC 7/2/2022, 11:53 am

bmize1 wrote:
NukeMMC wrote:I have a 9mm RO I acquired about a month ago with serial # NM464XXX. 

Mine is about 6k behind yours.
You can call SA Customer Service with the serial number and verify, but I would bet it is a RO.
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Post by S148 7/2/2022, 12:07 pm

Some notes:

Primer brand can make a difference in how they look fired. 

https://www.ssusa.org/content/remington-1-pistol-primers/

I've had some nice groups with the Zero RN JHP, but they seem to be less consistent than their Conical JHP, which I have found to be very accurate in my Kart barrel.

The groove diameter specs for 9mm barrels is .355" to .359". Anything in that range is within SAAMI specs.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Barrel fit is more important than groove diameter for accuracy.  

https://www.ssusa.org/content/apex-tactical-barrels-for-smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/

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Post by Allgoodhits 7/2/2022, 12:44 pm

.38 Spl and .45 acp are forgiving cartridges to find good loads for. A lot of possibilities, most all shoot well some shoot terrific. 9mm in my experience is the opposite. Finding an accurate load in the <2" grouping at 50 yds is a challenge.

I have fired some lead, hi tech coated and jacket bullets with many combinations. Sometimes 2-6 hits in a very tight group, then 1 or more multiple inches from the cluster. Sometimes a terrific group of all shots, then not repeatable the next time. Very frustrating.

The best load which I have arrived at so far for 9mm is with W231 powder. My finding thus far is that the Zero 115 gr JHP C #135 has given the best results using 5.2 -5.4 grains W231 with an OAL just under 1.100". Actually, I think it was 1.080". 

I have some VV N320, I am told it works well in 9mm, but have not tried it yet. I believe it will be as good or maybe better, but the powder charge by weight will be much less with N320 compared to W231. Probably in the low 4 gr range, but that at this point is a guess. I know that the same bullet mentioned above loaded in .38 Super with 4.7gr VV N320 at 1.235" OAL is an excellent load. Repeatably <2" at 50 yds.

Keep us posted. It is a journey.
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Post by CR10X 7/2/2022, 1:10 pm

Some things  to consider for accurate 9mm loads at 25 and 50 are velocity and bullet weight with respect to the barrel twist.

First, a number of loads, commercial and reload recipes have supersonic muzzle velocities and transition to subsonic near or after the 25 yard line, especially with light to mid weight bullets. This can lead to good groups at 25 and scattering at 50  (like a number of hits in a group and the remainder scattering around the group for example).

So, in general, the options are lighter bullets, faster velocities and slower relative twist rates (to achieve supersonic velocities past 50 yards) or heavier bullets and faster twist rates (to achieve subsonic velocities from the muzzle through 50 yards). 

It gets easier (at least for me) to find good loads with 1/10 twist (fast twist )for 125 - 147 grain lead or jacketed bullets and 1/16 or 1/32 (slower twist) with 115 gr jacketed ).

As always, your mileage may vary.

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Post by bruce martindale 7/2/2022, 1:51 pm

My RO-9mm had so much freebore that I could load 148 HBWC seated out halfway. Roundnose was simply a knuckleball as it was free of he case before engaging the rifling. Check how far out you can sea the bullet before touching rifling.

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Post by Jon Eulette 7/2/2022, 3:22 pm

Majority of RO 9mm I’ve worked on had extremely short lead into the rifling. Were really limited to bullets and seating length. Not a fan of that. KKM or Kart fixes that little problem lol.
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Post by bmize1 7/2/2022, 5:18 pm

First I checked the firing pin. .062” TI. Have a .068” TI that will not fit.
So I guess I’ll be ordering a .062” Steel.
Next….. it is Rem 1 1/2 primers, not Fed as I thought.
Will change to WSP. And try TG at 4.5 and up, then PP and BE.

I have zero 115 RN JHP, 115 HAP & 124 RMR Match Winner.
If I can’t get closer, I’ll probably be sending it to the left coast for a barrel.

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Post by LenV 7/2/2022, 6:53 pm

That little dimple you're getting on some of the primers could be excess powder. Not in the case but sitting on the primer pushing rod. I've seen a single grain of ball powder sitting on the pusher make baby dents in a whole run of bullets.
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Post by NukeMMC 7/2/2022, 7:30 pm

bmize1 wrote:First I checked the firing pin. .062” TI. Have a .068” TI that will not fit.
So I guess I’ll be ordering a .062” Steel.
Odd, as mine was a 0.062" Ti firing pin also, but the 0.068" EGW fit perfectly. They also have a 0.066".
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Post by S148 7/2/2022, 7:33 pm

bmize1 wrote:Next….. it is Rem 1 1/2 primers, not Fed as I thought.
Will change to WSP. And try TG at 4.5 and up, then PP and BE.

I have zero 115 RN JHP, 115 HAP & 124 RMR Match Winner.

The Remington 1 1/2 primer might help explain the apparent 'high pressure' sign, as per the article I posted.

The 115 HAP and 124 RMR Match Winner bullets provide good accuracy in my Kart barrel, especially the 124 RMR Match Winner.

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Post by bmize1 7/2/2022, 8:50 pm

The extra mark on the primer is from a sliver of brass on the primer seating rod, I saw it while inspecting as I was loading.
Yes the article you referenced explains the 1 1/2 well l, thanks.

I found a .062” Ed Brown steel pin at midway and it and a handful of backup springs for it and the 45 are coming soon.

I appreciate everyone’s input and will update soon when I get back to the range

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