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Load Workup Advice

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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:33 pm

Followup/continuation of my other thread in which I was asking about velocities for 185 gr JHPs.

I put together some different loads that seemed promising based on offhand shooting last week.

Finally got the Ransom Rest set up. Just moved to a new place and this tree stump seemed like the most solid thing around, so I attached a 2" slab of wood to it with some enormous 8" bolts, and mounted the RR to that. Solid as can be.

Load Workup Advice Res-ra10

I shot 21 rounds into each target (3 magazines of 7) at 50 yards. I didn't notice a consistently different point of impact for the 1st round out of the magazine, which is sometimes an issue with Ransom Rest groups.

I scanned each target into the TargetScan app to get accurate measurements including mean radius (more useful IMO than just extreme spread).

And oh yeah ... I'm using Vihtavuori N312 (not N310). Meters OK out of my Uniflow on a progressive, within about 0.05-0.1 gr. Funky looking short extruded T-shaped powder:

Load Workup Advice Res-n310


Federal Gold Medal Magnum large pistol primers, in Starline brass. Taper crimp to 0.469-0.470 for all loads.


Started with the Zero 185 JHPs (3.3" and 4.4" extreme spreads, respectively) -

Load Workup Advice Res-jh10

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Then some Brazos 200 gr SWCs (3.1" extreme spread) -

Load Workup Advice Res-sw11

And finished with some Brazos 180 gr SWCs (3.6" and 3.0" extreme spreads, respectively) -

Load Workup Advice Res-sw10

Load Workup Advice Res-sw12


Can't say I'm delighted with any of these, but the Brazos 180s appear best. They had the best mean radii of all the loads, though one of the groups had some vertical stringing for some reason. They tell me there is an art to getting groups out of a RR, but I think I was fairly consistent in the reset and trigger pulls.

Do any of you think it's worth messing with seating depth? I was going to try that with the Brazos 180s and see if things get any tighter.

Other suggestions?

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Post by DA/SA Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:47 pm

You might try a tighter crimp (.463"-.465") with the 180 or 200 Bazos before noodling with OAL.
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Post by Jon Eulette Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:52 pm

What pistol? Is it newer BE build or older build with mileage? Barrel?
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Post by ric1911a1 Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:17 pm

That powder is definitely funky looking..............

Ric
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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:37 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:What pistol? Is it newer BE build or older build with mileage? Barrel?
Jon

It's a newish-to-me David Sams that I bought off the classifieds here a few months ago. Kart barrel. Under 1000 rounds through it when I bought it. I have put about 200 rounds through it so far.

This one - https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t19051-sold-pending-funds-wts-dave-sams-1911-bullseye-pistol-45acp-and-22-conversion

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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:46 pm

ric1911a1 wrote:That powder is definitely funky looking..............

Ric
Supposedly it was designed to be an N310-ish powder that's bulkier to more completely fill cases, for OEMs. I'm not sure if it was ever available for retail. I bought a bunch of it in 7 kg bags for about $6/pound.

VV doesn't make it easy to find but there is load data out there for using it in shotguns, blanks, and people have used it for the usual pistol cartridges that like N310 or N320. No published .45acp data that I can find.

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Post by Jon Eulette Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 pm

I would assume it’s not the pistol. By deduction, it’s possible your RR setup has a weak link (attachment), pistol not in the RR insert properly or ammunition. You might try a factory loaded ammunition to make sure all is well with RR so your not chasing your tail.
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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:28 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I would assume it’s not the pistol. By deduction, it’s possible your RR setup has a weak link (attachment), pistol not in the RR insert properly or ammunition. You might try a factory loaded ammunition to make sure all is well with RR so your not chasing your tail.
Jon
I certainly don't blame the gun. Smile

No factory ammunition on hand, beyond some bulk 230 ball that I wouldn't expect to group well.

The RR is solid. I think it'd take an asteroid strike within a couple miles to jiggle it. The stump is about 2-3' across, solid, and the RR is screwed into a 2" thick plank that's bolted into the stump with 6" 3/8 screws.

Odds are, as usual, that any accuracy issues are pilot error. Any tricks/pitfalls to setting the pistol into the insert? Seemed self explanatory, it feels snug. I fired a few rounds to "settle" it before I began testing. Are there recommended torque values for the thumb screws? Wink Same motion/force on the trigger lever each time - at least, I think so.

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Post by zanemoseley Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:34 pm

Try some traditional ball powder like WST or BE and try a tighter crimp as mentioned above. I like WST and .463" crimp with lead. Extruded powders are typically slower burners for rifles but not familiar with your powder.

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Post by chiz1180 Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:22 pm

A known reference load probably wouldn’t be a bad idea. Atlanta has their 45 load in stock more frequently now than the have in previous months. Another option would be to load something a bit more standard (eg 4.4-4.6 bullseye with a 185jhp). Getting good and repeatable results from a ransom rest is a bit of an art/feel thing, you could try shooting from sandbags to see if your results are drastically different.
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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:12 pm

chiz1180 wrote:A known reference load probably wouldn’t be a bad idea. Atlanta has their 45 load in stock more frequently now than the have in previous months. Another option would be to load something a bit more standard (eg 4.4-4.6 bullseye with a 185jhp). Getting good and repeatable results from a ransom rest is a bit of an art/feel thing, you could try shooting from sandbags to see if your results are drastically different.
I just ordered some AA 185 Elite ammo.

I'll try some N310 tomorrow, and some more N312 with tighter crimps on the lead bullets. Pretty sure I've got some WST somewhere too.

I want the N312 to work, but if it doesn't, oh well. I can always use it in other pistol rounds that don't need this kind of accuracy.

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Post by pgg Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:15 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Try some traditional ball powder like WST or BE and try a tighter crimp as mentioned above. I like WST and .463" crimp with lead. Extruded powders are typically slower burners for rifles but not familiar with your powder.
N312 is between N310 and N320 ... approximately the same as BE.

I'm pretty sure I've got some WST around - and I'll try the tighter crimp with the coated lead bullets.

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Post by pgg Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:55 pm

Much better results today. Looks like the Brazos 180 SWC definitely likes a tighter crimp. Maybe also likes to be seated a bit longer, too. Everything today was 4.2 gr of N312 thrown by a RCBS Uniflow on a progressive.

A 0.467" crimp produced mean radii about half what I was getting yesterday. I shot 14-shot groups (two 7 rd magazines) for 0.469" and 0.467" today, with four different OALs for each crimp.

0.469": mean radii of 0.695, 0.995, 1.075, and 0.738 as OAL increased
0.467": mean radii of 0.653, 0.648, 0.600, and 0.530 as OAL increased

Load Workup Advice Res-4611
Load Workup Advice Res-4612


The 180 Brazos at 1.265" with a 0.467" crimp (longest OAL and tightest crimp) was the best. Including the one shot outside the group, it's a 14-shot group that's 1.89" (mean radius 0.530"). If I pretend that high shot isn't there it's a 1.32" group (MR 0.413).

I think I'll try even tighter (@zanemoseley mentioned 0.463") and see how long I can seat the bullets without contacting the rifling.

If I can consistently get a load that shoots with MR in the .4s I'll declare victory.


Also of note, I think my magazine changing with the Ransom Rest is hurting. I took a picture after the first 7 round magazine for one group (left) and the full 14 round group had a few high right rounds before the rest went in the main group. I don't know what to do about that. Just 7 rounds doesn't seem to be enough to confidently draw conclusions. Maybe I should see how big an extended magazine I can fit in the RR'd pistol to avoid any mag changes.

Load Workup Advice Res-sc10

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Post by jglenn21 Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:12 pm

One of the tricks to running the RR is to never let the slide lock back prior to changing mags. Load 6 in the 1st mag. Throw the 1st round somewhere safe but off target then fire 4 and change you magazine( carefully as the 6th round is chambered..i lock the thumb safety).
Then continue on.

Point is all rounds on target are loaded the same way..some.folks even use only one proven accurate mag. Yes some mags feed more consistancy.

I too have found the flat based 180gr bullet from Brazos or Summers to be suprisingly accurate at the LL.
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Post by Wobbley Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:55 pm

I have a 10 round mag and to eliminate the first shot error, I put a small block under the vertical adjustment screw to put the shot off target.  So I load 1, then load a full 10 round mag.
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Post by joeangi Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:53 pm

If you replace the hand knobs with regular nuts, you can use a torque wrench to tighten them to 21 in/ lbs. (per the folks at RR). Haven’t tried it myself, yet

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Post by SonOfSwede Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:56 am

joeangi posted that Ransom had suggested using hex nuts and a torque wrench to set the clamping pads.  He was told 21 in-lb.  However the tips section on the Ransom Rest webpage states 19 in-lb is used by the military teams for metal frame guns.

I did try that.  Since 19 was specified by the military I purchased a fixed torque 19 in-lb screw driver.  When my 1911 is mounted in the Ransom Rest with 19 in-lb torque the grip pads are almost touching.  The gap between the pads is about .020 in. It is much tighter than is shown in the photo's above or any other photo I have seen of a 1911 in a Ransom Rest.  I did not actually measure the gap between the pads.

I then acquired a variable torque driver and took photo's of the pad separation at 5, 10, 15, and 19 in-lb and sent them to Ransom for advice.  Michael Ransom responded this morning that the 19 in-lb looks correct with the pads almost touching.  

When I get a opportunity I will run some targets with Atlanta Elite 185 gr and various torques just to see what happens.

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Post by joeangi Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:06 pm

Sonofswede is absolutely correct, it was 19 in/ lbs for steel guns, and 14 in/ lbs for polymer guns. I remember writing down 21...but the manual says 19.

Joe

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Post by SonOfSwede Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:08 pm

There is a reagonal Bullseye match at Canton Mckinley this weekend where I am a member.  I was helping to park cars today and had a chance to talk with an Army team pistolsmith, the National Guard team pistolsmith, and an independent pistolsmith who posts on this forum.  They all fully close the pads on the Ransom Rest with a 1911 and more so.

I have also been trading e-mails with Michael Ransom.  Now he is not too sure about the 19 in-lb number and thinks a lower torque might be better.

The only thing I learned today is that none of these people recognize 19 in-lb as being a good torque spec.  

I have nothing constructive to say.

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Post by pittpa Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:16 pm

pgg wrote:Followup/continuation of my other thread in which I was asking about velocities for 185 gr JHPs.

I put together some different loads that seemed promising based on offhand shooting last week.

Finally got the Ransom Rest set up. Just moved to a new place and this tree stump seemed like the most solid thing around, so I attached a 2" slab of wood to it with some enormous 8" bolts, and mounted the RR to that. Solid as can be.

Load Workup Advice Res-ra10

Other suggestions?
FWIW, I ransom rested my 1911 SCG with Kart barrel using my Solo load and a Zero 185g JHP.  Unfortunately I never Chrono'd it.   Pic below with load, OAL and neck measurement..

I use Magnus 170g wadcutters with Federal primers and 4.3 WST for my 625-8 (it has a modified trigger, thus the Federal.)  That Magnus shot about the best of the lead bullets (I tried 185 and 200g) out of the 1911 on the Ransom at 25 yards and I needed a lead load for our indoor range as it was no copper allowed.  It is super in the revolver at 50'. 
Smaller pic below is the Magnus target at 50' from the revolver.
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