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Post by Merick Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:22 am

First topic message reminder :

Now that the eic approved pistol list is two pages or so, what models seem the most plausible after the 1911, xdm, match prepped 92, and p210a?

Or to put it another way; what are the bottom three of your top seven?

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Post by pgg Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:22 pm

RoyDean wrote:"The cut score for leg points at this year's NTI was 260."

At the recent PACFLT match at Camp Pendleton only one non-distinguished shooter broke 250 (just!) and got a 10 point gold hard leg. (You can guess how I know that for sure!).

😜😜👍

"Join the Navy......."

The lack of a floor / minimum score to earn leg points at Navy matches is a source of some disagreement amongst us. Cut scores 20-40 points below civilian matches risk cheapening the badge.

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Post by RoyDean Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:25 pm

AFAIK. The CMP dictated minimum score is 250 to qualify for leg points. Nothing to do with the Navy. IMHO.

Oh, and at the time of that match I had already accumulated 42 leg points, having won numerous EIC matches on the West Coast where it is very rare to see enough ND shooters to support a hard leg. Ho hum.

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Post by pgg Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:48 pm

RoyDean wrote:AFAIK. The CMP dictated minimum score is 250 to qualify for leg points. Nothing to do with the Navy. IMHO.

Oh, and at the time of that match I had already accumulated 42 leg points, having won numerous EIC matches on the West Coast where it is very rare to see enough ND shooters to support a hard leg. Ho hum.
Congrats

Hard legs are supposed to be hard. Smile Travel is frequently required. 

Looking at this year's results, the Pacific Fleet EIC had a gold at 241, silvers at 239 and 219, and bronzes at 217 and 213.

The Pacific All-Navy West EIC had a gold at 238, silvers at 237 and 235, and bronzes at 233 and 232. 

My pistol distinguished badge is a Navy one too. I think we should have the same minimum scores the CMP does. I think sub-220 scores earning leg points is not good for our program.

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Post by RoyDean Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:54 pm

Ah, Navy shooter badges. I know nothing about that, sorry. Yes I travelled a long way, but not as far as I had to come to get my P100 badge at Perry😜

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Post by CO1Mtn Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:13 pm

pgg wrote:
RoyDean wrote:"The cut score for leg points at this year's NTI was 260."

At the recent PACFLT match at Camp Pendleton only one non-distinguished shooter broke 250 (just!) and got a 10 point gold hard leg. (You can guess how I know that for sure!).

😜😜👍

"Join the Navy......."

The lack of a floor / minimum score to earn leg points at Navy matches is a source of some disagreement amongst us. Cut scores 20-40 points below civilian matches risk cheapening the badge.

You have a point, sir. One could argue that the tables of this sport are not level because of that. But I would also point out that most of those sailors are stuck on a ship for six months out of the year, making it much more difficult for them to train as much as civilians do. I've never been in the Navy, but I understand that it's a tough lifestyle and they're sacrificing a lot to be out at sea. If they want to go and have their own exclusive competition, I think they've earned that.

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Post by Wobbley Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:13 pm

From my experience of friends who I shot with over the last 30 years….Sailors generally alternate between a “Sea duty” billet and a “Shore duty” billet.  And there are those that are billeted as “SeaOpDet” which means they’re assigned to the ship when their unit is deployed.  Sea Billets are about 3-4 years.  Shore billets are 2-3 years.  Unless the ship is docked for a refit, your underway about half the time.  The “six month cruises” are usually 7-8 months now and they come along every 18 months or so. So yeah it’s not easy getting training time.  Couple that with the discouragement the Navy gives to shooting, it’s a wonder they even field a team.
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Post by Jon Eulette Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:25 pm

And then you have Don Hamilton. The exception to the Navy rule.
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Post by NukeMMC Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:13 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:And then you have Don Hamilton. The exception to the Navy rule.
Jon
And TMC(SS) Perry DeFino.  First ever Interservice Pistol champ
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Post by chiz1180 Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:26 pm

NukeMMC wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:And then you have Don Hamilton. The exception to the Navy rule.
Jon
And TMC(SS) Perry DeFino.  First ever Interservice Pistol champ
Also Admiral Lee, way back in the day won both rifle and pistol at Perry in 1907.
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Post by pgg Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:32 pm

CO1Mtn wrote:
pgg wrote:
RoyDean wrote:"The cut score for leg points at this year's NTI was 260."

At the recent PACFLT match at Camp Pendleton only one non-distinguished shooter broke 250 (just!) and got a 10 point gold hard leg. (You can guess how I know that for sure!).

😜😜👍

"Join the Navy......."

The lack of a floor / minimum score to earn leg points at Navy matches is a source of some disagreement amongst us. Cut scores 20-40 points below civilian matches risk cheapening the badge.

You have a point, sir. One could argue that the tables of this sport are not level because of that. But I would also point out that most of those sailors are stuck on a ship for six months out of the year, making it much more difficult for them to train as much as civilians do. I've never been in the Navy, but I understand that it's a tough lifestyle and they're sacrificing a lot to be out at sea. If they want to go and have their own exclusive competition, I think they've earned that.

Believe me I get it, your points are not without merit and I've heard them made by many others over the years. I just disagree, for what it's worth.

When I was chasing points, I too missed entire years of matches and EIC opportunities due to deployments or simply my command not permitting me to go to fleet/IS/national matches. It took me ~6 years to leg out in rifle and about 5 for pistol.

The simple truth is that all of us have lives outside of shooting. Jobs where we need to coordinate vacation time, budgets to contend with, spouses and family who deserve our time, differing qualities of local ranges and leagues to gain experience, in-person high master mentors vs bullseyeforum.net mentors available to us, on and on and on. ALL sports are, to a large extent, subject to unlevel playing fields that are mostly unlevel because of money and time (which is also money).

Yes, the Navy has some unique challenges. I'd still rather see the same minimums as CMP, even if it meant fewer badges. I do acknowledge and concede the counterpoint, that leg points are the chief prize we offer for participation, and if they're too far out of reach then participation will suffer, and then there aren't any matches at all.

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Post by NukeMMC Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:34 pm

Wobbley wrote:From my experience of friends who I shot with over the last 30 years….Sailors generally alternate between a “Sea duty” billet and a “Shore duty” billet.  And there are those that are billeted as “SeaOpDet” which means they’re assigned to the ship when their unit is deployed.  Sea Billets are about 3-4 years.  Shore billets are 2-3 years.  Unless the ship is docked for a refit, your underway about half the time.  The “six month cruises” are usually 7-8 months now and they come along every 18 months or so. So yeah it’s not easy getting training time.  Couple that with the discouragement the Navy gives to shooting, it’s a wonder they even field a team.
When I retired in 03, my rate (Sub nuke MM) was 5yrs sea duty, 30 months shore.  After the nuke training pipeline, I spent Oct 84 - Jun 87 on my first boat. Spent 300 days away from home port in 85. split-toured and did pre-commissioning on my 2nd boat Jun 87 - Feb 91.  First shore tour was fixing subs Feb 91 - May 93.  Cut it short as I was in 12 on 12 off shiftwork more often than not.  3rd boat was May 93 - Jun 96, split-toured again to another pre-com Jun 96 - Sep 99 then went to 2nd/final shore tour at a troubleshooting/monitoring team.  Rode just about every sub on the east coast a few days at a time. Retired off that job in Jan 03.
Somewhere in all that I shot Fleets 88-94, All Navy all except 89, Interservice Rifle 91 and Nationals 93.  Went Distinguished with the M14 in 93, have 2 bronze and a silver in pistol.
Navy "Teams" are unfunded, I don't even think they have an armorer van anymore.  Shooters go on no-cost TAD orders at best.  About 1/2 the time they take leave (vacation) to go to matches.  When you get Things like the USS Cole bombing that could have been stopped by 1 competent marksman, I just shake my head.
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Post by Star loader Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:10 am

Jon
A funny, shot a leg match early 80's at Bristol, Vs .  Had a great slow fire ( over 95) , looked at the ammo box knew the lot was a great lot.
Went th the short line and had a 98 timed fire . At this time I started thinking that I just might win the leg match. At this point the monkeys started appearing but a great big gorilla pushed the monkeys away
 and climbed on my back . Rapid fire did not have many in the black. Ended up with a 272 and got a leg .
Taught me a valuable lesson that the only round to concentrate on is the one in the chamber. The fired one's you can't bring back and the unfired one's May never happen !

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Post by pgg Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:37 am

NukeMMC wrote:Navy "Teams" are unfunded, I don't even think they have an armorer van anymore.  Shooters go on no-cost TAD orders at best.  About 1/2 the time they take leave (vacation) to go to matches.  When you get Things like the USS Cole bombing that could have been stopped by 1 competent marksman, I just shake my head.
We're mostly unfunded. The Navy provides a supply of ammunition that mostly covers matches (Fleet/IS/Nationals + the occasional local training match), but there isn't much for practice.

We raise money selling snacks etc at the Fleet matches, which generally covers team cards and a barracks at Camp Perry, and usually reimburses us for 1/2 our match fees. Gear and travel costs are almost always on the individual ... which is unfortunate and leads to circumstances like this year's attendance at Camp Perry for nationals: five people, of which two were O4s, one was an O5, one was an O6 - and a single (reservist) enlisted sailor. Not a single active duty enlisted sailor could go.

There's no armorer. When I had a pistol problem this year at Perry, I took it to the AMU trailer and they graciously worked on it for me.

It's often a struggle for individuals to get permission from their commands to attend, whether on no-cost TAD or leave. It's odd, but there's a big slice of senior leadership in the military that thinks guns are icky and that they belong locked up in the armory at all times.

We do have better attendance at rifle IS and nationals.

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Post by PMcfall Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:42 am

Speaking of the old days, I don't think scores were lower, in fact, I think they were higher.  Can't remember what it took to leg at Perry but I never remember Presidents 100 under 350 which they have been the last two years.  And yes, we were issued the Match 230 gr ball on the range.  Now you can shoot an iron sighted wad gun.

  I think Distinguished badge began in 1890.  I got mine in 1990 and it is number 880.  So in 100 years, 880 badges were earned.  Now over 5000 badges have been awarded, so in the next 30 years after my badge, 4100  or so were awarded with fewer bullseye shooters.  Go figure!
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Post by Wobbley Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:04 pm

I got my Civilian rifle badge in 1986, it was under #700.  Now those are upwards of 2400.  So in the history of the program it took 60-70 years to get to 700 but only 30 to add almost 1700.  The services have separate lists and counts.  But all are listed at the CMP.

According to CMP there are 8300 Rifle and 5100 Pistol badges of all types.
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Post by Dcforman Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:25 pm

I think a drop in scores in service pistol (and honestly, I've not really looked to see if that's true) has very little to do with a switch to any jacketed ammo. I think it has everything to do with the fact that most shooters do not practice shooting irons. I was a lowly sharpshooter at Perry this year, yet earned hard legs in 22, revolver, and service pistol. I attribute all of this to shooting a little air pistol nearly every morning. If nothing else, that practice has helped me shoot irons.

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Post by Star loader Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:21 pm

Originally you had to shoot a 1911 with ISSUE sights ! At that time a sight adjuster was available to push your sight right or left as needed .
My old armored ( sent to Benning when the AMU was formed ) had one .


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Post by PMcfall Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:00 pm

Just for fun, I looked back at 10 years of scores to see how they compared with todays scores.
                  President 100      NTI
1987                363                267
1988                362                267
1989                362                266
1990                ???                 266
1991                360                266
1992                360                267
1993                359                265
1994                357                266
1995                359                266
1996                357                263

So at least in these years, old scores were significantly higher than today's scores.  Also, we shot ball and had to walk to the range, uphill both ways!
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Post by Froneck Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:25 am

When I was chasing a leg the cut scores at Camp Perry were in the high 260s using issued 230g ball. Fred Kart did the work on my 1911 being it was a Gold Cup. Front sight was silver soldered in. After problems with the rear sight I was lucky to get the last drop in replacement for the Elliason sight that was on the Gold Cup from Bomar. I got my Distinguished Badge from the DCM in 1986. 1982 was the first year the Gold Cup National Match was allowed in the National Match (EIC).

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Post by rich.tullo Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:06 pm

I built a PPQ Q5 as an experiment , Jarvis Barrel , Dynamic trigger, and Spinco Recoil System. 

I have a vortex dot on it now, and I have a LPA Adjustable sight for it but need to change the front sight to make that work well. 

I shoot good with the gun and the dot but my RO with a Kart barrel is a hammer. 

The problem is you need 124gn with that set up to hold the x ring at 25 yards. I am still working on loads. My opinion is a good 45acp is the best way to go but if you are looking to shoot and not win the gun is very capable of getting a 250 to 275 score as I have and it will clean the short line albeit it is very unforgiving owing to the recoil.
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Post by Orpanaut Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:53 pm

I tried shooting a SIG P320 X5 for the CMP matches last year. It did OK and a better shooter could definitely earn some leg points with one.

The CZ P-09 is almost match ready out of the box in terms of accuracy and trigger pull. The problem is that there's no easy way to add adjustable sights to one. Cajun Gun Works used to offer a nice Bomar-style rear sight and the slide milling required to mount it but I don't know if they still do.

If the CMP would add the Canik TP9 series to the approved list (which, in my opinion, they should, since one of the largest armies in Europe issues them) then the Mete SFX model would probably work with just a rear sight replacement. It's inexpensive enough that I'd try one just to see how competitive it could be.

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Post by rich.tullo Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:04 am

This conversation inspired me to mount LPA adjustable sight to my PPQ. The sight is very similar to the sight they use on the Xesse. 

Over all the rear sight is workable not great, I think they have a better one now off the M5 but I will use what I have. 

The front sight is a little hard to pick up, think I have to go to a #6 sight from what I gather from the Walther manual. 

Results with 124gn 9mm 4.2 W231, I shot a 189/200 6x. I think that is OK for a plastic gun. 

The gun cost me $500 used but like new, The barrel was $250, The Dynamic trigger was $250, and the sprinco was $100. The factory barrel is good but maybe 1/2 inch less accurate then the Jarvis at 25 yards. 

So in conclusion, My tuned PPQ is as good shooter ; defiantly a 260+ capable gun with the right ammo.  

I do not think the Sprinco was necessary but it adds a little weight. The Dynamic trigger is a big benefit to the PPQ, I think I had an early M2 with a Navy trigger, Navy triggers had a different striker and set up to shoot under water which made the trigger worse. If you have a late model PPQ the light trigger return spring should make it good for CMP at #4.4 the factory trigger on mine was a creepy #6. 

If you have a PDP, trigger is improved over the PPQ but still not as good as the Dynamic. I am using a heavy return spring which brings the weight to #5 but perfectly workable for CMP. If you keep the trigger moving weight does not matter much.
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