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Wad gun battery issue

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rich.tullo
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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 10:09 am

So I have a series 80 Gold Cup that has been accurised, work was performed by a recognized name on the list. In it’s current condition it has Accurails Kart barrel/bushing and fitted fire controls with a very fine trigger, 18# mainspring & 1” UltraDot rides the slide with a 10# recoil spring. I’m shooting Brazos 180FBSWC & 200SWC using 4.3gr of Titegroup and accuracy is not an issue. Function is the issue as it consistently (50-60%) fails to go completely into battery. Often the slide is 1/4” or less from battery except for the last round which hangs up halfway into the chamber every time. The GS says it is my reloads, which may well be, specs are Winchester brass CCI or WLP primers, .463 crimp and .935 base to shoulder. Recommends going to a .461 crimp, when I tried that the cases looked like a fit pregnant woman! I am using an RL550 with Dillon dies and Alex’s new PTU designed for the flat bottom cast bullets. (Works awesome though does require more effort on extraction) Seating die is modified to seat on the outer edge of bullet ont the nose for consistency.  I’m frustrated and hoping to get some help here, I have Wolff springs from 8-18# on hand, chamber is clean. 

Personal headspace is at risk!

Rod


Last edited by Motophotog7 on 7/31/2022, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by james r chapman 7/31/2022, 10:18 am

Picture of loaded round
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Post by Foundryratjim 7/31/2022, 10:24 am

I load for mine with the same equipment setup. Do the rounds drop into the barrel by hand?

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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 10:28 am

Wad gun battery issue 8baf9a10

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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 10:29 am

Yes they pass the plunk test

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Post by Foundryratjim 7/31/2022, 10:31 am

Those look identical to the 180's I load for mine.

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Post by Foundryratjim 7/31/2022, 10:36 am

Motophotog7 wrote:Yes they pass the plunk test
If they do i cant see the rounds being the issue but i am just a rookie. I had John Eulette work his magic  on my colt and it was so tight in the beginning it some times would not go completely into battery. About 1/8 inch out. I could push it in with my thumb. 500 rounds later it doesn't happen.

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Post by james r chapman 7/31/2022, 10:43 am

Looks ok, what’s the distance base to shoulder.

I think it could use a bit more crimp though
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Post by knightimac 7/31/2022, 10:58 am

The OAL that functions best in all my 45s is  in the range of 1.243-1.240 with 200 Brazos Swc. 4.2 Titegroup.  Maybe a heavier recoil spring?
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Post by Rodger Barthlow 7/31/2022, 11:05 am

From what you say it sounds like the recoil spring is too light to send everything back into battery.
90% of 1911 malfunctions are from trying to load everything too light and use too light springs to get it to work.

 Just for the heck of it try a 12-12.5lb recoil spring. I shoot 185gr Zero's over 4.2grs WST in my custom shop Springfield 1911 with the slide mounted Ultra dot and runs like a Swiss clock.
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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 11:27 am

.935 base to shoulder

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Post by Dcforman 7/31/2022, 11:52 am

How many rounds through the gun? Sometimes the slide will hang on a new build until shot in.

I generally load to .920-.925 at the shoulder. Going below .463 shouldn't be necessary. I only know of one old smith who recommends a crimp around .460.

Make sure the chamber is clean. What magazines are you using?

Dave

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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 12:11 pm

Multiple quality magazines with the same result. I guess I’ll just shoot it more and see if that fixes it. I may try swapping recoil spring, I was wondering if it just needs a bit more force to go into battery

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Post by Allgoodhits 7/31/2022, 12:13 pm

Based on your statements and differing result depending on which round in magazine, I would start with trying a different magazine. Simple test. Load a magazine up fully. Does it work well on first few rounds better than last couple? If so, maybe the magazine is not pushing the roads up high enough, or quick enough or the proper angle. If that test revealed variation, then maybe disassemble and clean mags. How old are magazine springs? 

Next check extractor tension. It may be excessive or very dirty under there. This could prevent rim to slide freely up behind the extractor. This retards the round from getting parallel to the chamber or slows the slide down. How battered is the brass? Brass which has landed on concrete and get burrs on the rim. Those burrs can hang up on extractor, especially, if tension is tight. Have you tried anyone else ammo or factory ammo? If your loaded ammo drop tests in the barrel, then it is NOT likely a cartridge dimension problem. It could be a feed angle issue, extractor tension issue, damaged case rim issue or slide speed issue. The flaw to drop tests into the barrel, is that when shooting the gun, the round only gets 100% in line with the barrel at the last bit. Prior to that, it is at some slight angle, or other impediment. A heavier recoil spring will reduce some of those issues. That old saying. If something doesn't fit, you need a bigger hammer. 

As others have said recoil spring may be too light. I run the same bullets load about the same way with a slide mounted scope. I run a 13 lb recoil spring. I crimp only enough to remove flare for seating bullets, and enough to prevent bullet setback. That's typically .471 - .472 the manner in which I measure.


Last edited by Allgoodhits on 7/31/2022, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 12:20 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Based on your statements and differing result depending on which round in magazine, I would start with trying a different magazine. Simple test. Load a magazine up fully. Does it work well on first few rounds better than last couple? If so, maybe the magazine is not pushing the roads up high enough, or quick enough or the proper angle. If that test revealed variation, then maybe disassemble and clean mags. How old are magazine springs? 

Next check extractor tension. It may be excessive or very dirty under there. This could prevent rim to slide freely up behind the extractor. This retards the round from getting parallel to the chamber or slows the slide down.

As others have said recoil spring may be too light. I run the same bullets load about the same way with a slide mounted scope. I run a 13 lb recoil spring. I crimp only enough to remove flare for seating bullets, and enough to prevent bullet setback. That's typically .471 - .472 the manner in which I measure.
.471 is where I started as well, another spring recommendation, which was where I was of half a mind to go, (which isn’t much of a brain left) so I will try that. Wish I had some factory SWC to try for function… Probably only 2-250 rounds since the build so I wouldn’t expect much fouling behind the extractor but easy enough to check.

Thanks all!

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Post by Allgoodhits 7/31/2022, 12:36 pm

Motophotog7 wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:Based on your statements and differing result depending on which round in magazine, I would start with trying a different magazine. Simple test. Load a magazine up fully. Does it work well on first few rounds better than last couple? If so, maybe the magazine is not pushing the roads up high enough, or quick enough or the proper angle. If that test revealed variation, then maybe disassemble and clean mags. How old are magazine springs? 

Next check extractor tension. It may be excessive or very dirty under there. This could prevent rim to slide freely up behind the extractor. This retards the round from getting parallel to the chamber or slows the slide down.

As others have said recoil spring may be too light. I run the same bullets load about the same way with a slide mounted scope. I run a 13 lb recoil spring. I crimp only enough to remove flare for seating bullets, and enough to prevent bullet setback. That's typically .471 - .472 the manner in which I measure.
.471 is where I started as well, another spring recommendation, which was where I was of half a mind to go, (which isn’t much of a brain left) so I will try that. Wish I had some factory SWC to try for function… Probably only 2-250 rounds since the build so I wouldn’t expect much fouling behind the extractor but easy enough to check.

Thanks all!

...another thought. I have several accu-railed guns. If a small piece of anything gets behind a rail, it can really slow a slide down, and it is hard to see behind the rails. You may be able to flush out behind there with some spray cleaner. Rails can be removed for cleaning. You must take a pick or similar instrument and push the hook part out of the frame at the front end. Do not tug on them from the rear end. They will break. Especially the left side which has the cut in it to clear the slide latch. Again, I think slide speed is the problem. More spring will do that. Out.
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Post by PhotoEscape 7/31/2022, 12:36 pm

Dcforman wrote:
I generally load to .920-.925 at the shoulder. Going below .463 shouldn't be necessary.
Dave
+1 on Dave's suggestion to go down to 0.920" base to shoulder, and/or about 1.24"- OAL.  0.463-0.465" crimp.

Also polishing "hood" of the barrel, - this is what drives bullet into the chamber after it hits feeding ramp.  11-13# recoil spring depending on what is riding on the slide.

Adding after re-reading OP - suggest trying 12# recoil spring.  1" UD is very light, so 10# spring might not be enough.

That is IMO of course.

AP


Last edited by PhotoEscape on 7/31/2022, 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)
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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 3:54 pm

The rail out of sorts is intriguing, worth checking for sure. Base to shoulder dimension seems to be a preference issue as I have heard too short is wrong and too long is wrong with those lengths being somewhat subjective.

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Post by LenV 7/31/2022, 3:56 pm

Going to a 12lb recoil spring sounds like a good idea. I also see more shoulder than I like. The rule of thumb is the shoulder should protrude about a fingernails worth. Thick nails here. Wad gun battery issue Screen25
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Post by Motophotog7 7/31/2022, 4:42 pm

I have an unnaturally thick nail due to a serious thumb injury several decades ago! I can seat a bit deeper easy to do.

Thanks for all the suggestions, now to implement them all at once and not know what solved the problem! (Assumptions have been made!)

Rod

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Post by jglenn21 7/31/2022, 5:01 pm

if the gun and ammo are right it will feed fine with a 10lb spring..just saying



OP take a serious look at your extractor tension
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Post by Chase Turner 7/31/2022, 5:56 pm

Having had this experience with a name known to many on the list, I second Jimmy's recommendation.

Paid $4K+ for a new build, and the extractor that came with the gun wasn't tensioned. 

No one should need a .463" crimped round to function, full stop. If you want to use that, hey, great, but no pistol needs it that tight to function.

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Post by Jon Eulette 7/31/2022, 6:08 pm

Remove your extractor and try loading a cartridge. If it feeds ok you probably have too much extractor tension. I’ve found that Heavy Duty EGW extractors can cause feeding issues if not relieved enough/properly on the bottom of the extractor tip.
If your still having issues the roll over point (transition from barrel ramp to chamber) might need relieved for good feeding.
Have you tried factory ammunition?
Also magazine release point dramatically affects feeding and if releasing too late will cause problems like this.
How many rounds did your gunsmith test fire before shipping? What is his load?
Tighter crimp normally only applies to reduced loads to build pressure to cycle. Factory jacketed is 0.471” and typically chambers fine.
Jon
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Post by Wobbley 7/31/2022, 7:17 pm

I also vote for seating your bullets to a base to shoulder of .920 maximum.  Below is a picture of the SAAMI 45 Auto Match chamber.  Note that there is NO freebore just a tapered leade in front of the casemouth.  A .45 sWC bullet will likely interfere with the lockup resulting in a “tight lockup”.  Having a tight lockup can cause malfunctions from extra loads to the functioning parts. BTDT. Wad gun battery issue 6751a610
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Post by Wes Lorenz 7/31/2022, 7:47 pm

Motophotog7 wrote:Wad gun battery issue 8baf9a10

Hi Moto,
My .02.
Looking at your photo it does not appear to be a .463" crimp, especially the round on the left where I can see a sharp edge of the case mouth.
Below is a picture of a round measuring .920" w/less than a .466" crimp as measured with this tool I made. Also has a B. Martindale round checker built in.  Wink
You might up your charge a little until you break the pistol in.
Hope this helps.

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Wad gun battery issue Cimg0513

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