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aimpoint or ultradot

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Post by DIDON1972 11/25/2022, 9:48 pm

any pros cons to the aimppint 9000sc to the ultradot 6?

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Post by CrankyThunder 11/26/2022, 5:17 am

I own three ultra dots, own a 9000L, and have owned a 9000SC.  

Both the ultra dots and the aimpoints have a lifetime warranty, I personally can recommend the aimpoint warranty.  

Some of the newer ultra dots have a slight negative magnification that some people do not notice, and it drives others nuts.  

The ultra dots will kill a battery in a couple days if you leave it on.  Buy a couple dozen CR 2032 and stash them in your box.  

The aimpoint 9000SC and 9000L are very heavy but bulletproof.  They take a 1/3N (?) battery that has a lifespan of like 10,000 hours.  I have the original battery in mine after eight years or so.  You can get a little storage compartment for a extra battery to screw on the battery module on the side of the scope.  

Personally, you should check out the Aimpoint H-2.  Takes the CR 2032 but battery lasts a long time and it is 1/4 the weight of the 9000SC.  

Some other red dots that I recommend are the Sig Sauer Romeo 5 but I do not like the pushbutton brightness controls because I have inadvertently turned the dot off trying to adjust the brightness during a match.  If you can find one, the discontinued Sig Sauer STS-081 has a rotary brightness tab and it is a awesome red dot.  

The Holosun Red Dots are very good as well.  They have a million different models, the difference being the type of reticle and if it is red or green.  While the various reticles are fun to goof around with, you will come back to the basic red dot reticle.  

I see a lot of Vortex Red dots on the line but do not have any experience with them.  

I do have a lot of experience setting up equipment for new shooters and invariably, in their excitement to get competition ready after they have purchased their firearm, they get a cheap Chinese unbranded red dot off Ebay or Amazon.  As such, I tell them to send it back for a refund and maintain a small stash of proven red dots that I can loan them until they save enough for a quality red dot.  

Hope this helps you out!

Regards, 
Crankster
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Post by Boxturtle 11/26/2022, 8:13 am

Crankster gives good advice.  The 9000sc weighs 7.4 oz and the Aimpoint 6 weighs 5.9 oz.  The difference is only 1.5 oz.  I like both, but put 9000sc scopes on my best guns.
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Post by RoyDean 11/26/2022, 10:15 am

Why is this thread in Barter?

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Post by james r chapman 11/26/2022, 11:28 am

RoyDean wrote:Why is this thread in barter?

Moved to equipment
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Post by mikemyers 1/20/2023, 6:05 pm

Has anyone here tried the Aimpoint Pro ?

Aimpoint Pro, Amazon

Aimpoint tech support suggests removing the mounting base, and using a standard 30mm "low" mounting ring.

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Post by Jon Eulette 1/20/2023, 7:04 pm

I have used the Aimpoint ACO on one of my 45’s. Frame mount with single ring. Not as expensive as 9000SC. Works excellent.
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Post by mikemyers 1/20/2023, 7:25 pm

Thanks, Jon.

My issue is rather strange, and last time I asked, nobody understood what I was trying to say.  On my 1911, the  one-inch Ultradot acts like a long tubular weight, stretched out for most of the length of the gun, and it helps to "stabilize" the gun.  I took it off a few days ago, and mounted an Aimpoint H-1 (again) and just like last time, the gun would not remain pointed dead ahead.  To say it "vibrated" is the closest I can come to describing it.  The physics are that a long cylinder held in front is more stable than a short, stubby, sight - for me.  It's very repeatable, and with the one-inch Ultradot my shooting is much better.

BUT - the Ultradots are like a negative magnifier - everything I see is smaller than what I can see with my eyes.

I really want a red dot sight that looks and works like a one-inch Ultradot, but which doesn't make the target smaller.

The huge Aimpoint 9000 is too big and heavy for me.  While I still had it, I tried it many times, but without spending a year at "body building", I can't deal with it.  I think I sold it to KC.

The Aimpoint Pro is around $480 or so, and shows a full-size image, no reduction.  It's 30mm, not one inch, but if it works for me, I can live with that.  If I buy it from Amazon, there's no risk - no shipping fees, and if I don't like it I can return it.

Or, I can follow Dave Salyer's advice, and just shoot the 45 the way I've been doing.  

I suspect that my problem is "resonance", and the H-1 makes it worse, while the long Ultradot make things better. 

(On the other hand, my Baer Premiere II has no such issues - only the stock steel sights, and it sits motionless when I hold it.  Plan "B" is to skip the red dot and just shoot naturally.)

I don't want to take this thread way off from how it started, Aimpoint of Ultradot, so maybe forget everything else I wrote, and consider 1" Ultradot vs. Aimpoint Pro.

Thanks for what you wrote - maybe I'll just have to try it out to see how well it works for me.
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Post by mikemyers 1/20/2023, 7:32 pm

Oops, Tech Support at Aimpoint just sent me a message suggesting I get this:

https://aimpoint.us/aimpoint-carbine-optic-aco-red-dot-reflex-sight-with-mount-2-moa-200174/

Also, less expensive, but maybe this is all I need.
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Post by Jon Eulette 1/20/2023, 7:50 pm

mikemyers wrote:Thanks, Jon.

My issue is rather strange, and last time I asked, nobody understood what I was trying to say.  On my 1911, the  one-inch Ultradot acts like a long tubular weight, stretched out for most of the length of the gun, and it helps to "stabilize" the gun.  I took it off a few days ago, and mounted an Aimpoint H-1 (again) and just like last time, the gun would not remain pointed dead ahead.  To say it "vibrated" is the closest I can come to describing it.  The physics are that a long cylinder held in front is more stable than a short, stubby, sight - for me.  It's very repeatable, and with the one-inch Ultradot my shooting is much better.

BUT - the Ultradots are like a negative magnifier - everything I see is smaller than what I can see with my eyes.

Sounds like your gun is coming out of battery too fast. When I shoot loose guns the dynamics are crappy and sometimes feel twangy. What pound recoil spring and what load?
I won’t use UD because of the negative magnification. Makes it harder to shoot.
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Post by mikemyers 1/20/2023, 8:04 pm

No, I'm talking about just holding the gun, and aiming.  The red dot is never absolutely stable, but it is FAR more stable with the Ultradot than the H-1 Aimpoint.  

If I'm feeling good, and with the 1" Ultradot, the dot is "almost" motionless, although I'm sure it is moving in sync with my heartbeat.  If I replace the Ultradot with the H-1, the gun (red dot) wanders around a LOT more.

I doubt if anyone here is going to understand what I mean, but I have the same issue with other guns - I need to find a red dot sight that "fits me" and fits my body.  (One of my favorite sights is the Vortex Venom.)

I so much agree with what you wrote, but I haven't been able to find a better choice in a similar sight.  The people at Ultradot tell me there is no negative magnification - I gave up on arguing.

I won’t use UD because of the negative magnification. Makes it harder to shoot.
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Post by Jon Eulette 1/20/2023, 8:13 pm

Mike,
You need to work on your grip. Grip has a lot to do with how steady our hold is/looks. Experiment with very minor changes: pressure, rotating hand left and right minutely. 
It’s the grip Smile
Jon
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Post by DA/SA 1/20/2023, 8:20 pm

mikemyers wrote:and with the one-inch Ultradot my shooting is much better.
and the dot is much larger and tha sight radius longer on the Ultradot than the Aimpoint.

Honestly, I shoot both UD's and Aimpoint's and can't really say that I have ever noticed the difference in minification when actually shooting. I guess it's a focus thing, like some being bothered by others gunshots. I can't say that I even hear them.
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Post by Tripscape 1/20/2023, 9:08 pm

Question - do you mount Aimpoint to the front or to the back of the pistol?

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Post by Wobbley 1/21/2023, 1:31 am

I have a Question for ultradot users.  Would the “negative” magnification give a false indication of your wobble area?  Presuming that the dot is projected on the image plane of the optic im wondering if the wobble area is reduced equally or maybe even enlarged.  I have an UD on my 22 but not on my 45.  And my wobble is different which I’m concluding that it is because the weight and balance are different.  But I’m curious if there’s a correlation to the optical neg magnification as well?
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Post by Wes Lorenz 1/21/2023, 8:17 am

Angular dispersion caused by (varying) wrist and grip tension (along with jerking the trigger) cause errant shots.
Wobble is irrelevant. Buy a cheap laser pointer and tape it up to fit inside your 45 barrel. Point it at the bull and have someone watch the target thru a spotting scope. I bet you have a 10 ring or better hold until you press the trigger.

Before 2001 I was a hard holder and shot over 2650. Then I fell off a flatbed semi trailer and landed on my shoulder (shooting arm).
By 2004 I wobbled all over the target, but was back to 2650.
My .02 and experiences

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Post by mikemyers 1/21/2023, 8:37 am

"Mike,
You need to work on your grip. Grip has a lot to do with how steady our hold is/looks. Experiment with very minor changes: pressure, rotating hand left and right minutely. 
It’s the grip aimpoint or ultradot  Icon_smile
Jon"

I agree completely - I found a video which is what I changed to, and I am shooting better now than I can ever remember, which has nothing to do with the steadiness of the gun as I am "aiming".

"and the dot is much larger and tha sight radius longer on the Ultradot than the Aimpoint."
I can buy any size dot that I want.  I've settled on Ultradot 1" tube sight, and I have had several Aimpoints, with the 9000 being best for me except for the weight.


"I bet you have a 10 ring or better hold until you press the trigger."
I am writing about BEFORE I press the trigger.


"Would the “negative” magnification give a false indication of your wobble area? "
For me, no, just a smaller size sight picture, everything reduced, like a negative magnifier.
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Post by mikemyers 1/21/2023, 8:47 am

How I shoot now - exactly what is shown in this video, hold, grip, everything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylh4DyMADRU


My problem is directly related to the red dot sight.  My Baer Premiere II is completely steady in my hand, and shooting as shown in the above video, my results are now just as good as with a red dot sight.

The "vibration" issue for me is similar one-handed and two-handed.  I believe it has everything to do with resonance, but with the one inch Ultradot there is no problem - I can shoot my Salyer/Springfield wad gun with the one inch Ultradot dot sight as well as the Baer, often better.

Back on topic - the Aimpoint shows a 100% view.
The Ultradot shows a reduced size view.
If anything, I would prefer an enlarged view - which isn't available.   :-(

I'm very tempted to buy that longer Aimpoint, just to try it out.  The tech support person at Aimpoint thinks this would be good for me.
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Post by DA/SA 1/21/2023, 9:00 am

mikemyers wrote: and I have had several Aimpoints, with the 9000 being best for me except for the weight.
The 9000 has the longest sight radius if them all
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Post by BE Mike 1/21/2023, 9:13 am

CrankyThunder wrote:I own three ultra dots, own a 9000L, and have owned a 9000SC.  

Both the ultra dots and the aimpoints have a lifetime warranty, I personally can recommend the aimpoint warranty.  

Some of the newer ultra dots have a slight negative magnification that some people do not notice, and it drives others nuts.  

The ultra dots will kill a battery in a couple days if you leave it on.  Buy a couple dozen CR 2032 and stash them in your box.  

The aimpoint 9000SC and 9000L are very heavy but bulletproof.  They take a 1/3N (?) battery that has a lifespan of like 10,000 hours.  I have the original battery in mine after eight years or so.  You can get a little storage compartment for a extra battery to screw on the battery module on the side of the scope.  

Personally, you should check out the Aimpoint H-2.  Takes the CR 2032 but battery lasts a long time and it is 1/4 the weight of the 9000SC.  

Some other red dots that I recommend are the Sig Sauer Romeo 5 but I do not like the pushbutton brightness controls because I have inadvertently turned the dot off trying to adjust the brightness during a match.  If you can find one, the discontinued Sig Sauer STS-081 has a rotary brightness tab and it is a awesome red dot.  

The Holosun Red Dots are very good as well.  They have a million different models, the difference being the type of reticle and if it is red or green.  While the various reticles are fun to goof around with, you will come back to the basic red dot reticle.  

I see a lot of Vortex Red dots on the line but do not have any experience with them.  

I do have a lot of experience setting up equipment for new shooters and invariably, in their excitement to get competition ready after they have purchased their firearm, they get a cheap Chinese unbranded red dot off Ebay or Amazon.  As such, I tell them to send it back for a refund and maintain a small stash of proven red dots that I can loan them until they save enough for a quality red dot.  

Hope this helps you out!

Regards, 
Crankster
I'm glad to hear that Aimpoints have a lifetime warranty. I remember when they used to abandon their older models. Of course the other drawbacks were weight and high price.
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Post by 10sandxs 1/21/2023, 10:03 am

mikemyers wrote:How I shoot now - exactly what is shown in this video, hold, grip, everything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylh4DyMADRU
Well, there's your problem... if your shooting 1 handed,  that's the "zins" grip. Works great for him,  but I spent a lot of time and money to find out it doesn't work for me.  

If your shooting 2 handed,  I don't belive in the 70/30 rule and isometric tension for precision shooting. If your trying to shave fractions of a second of your recovery times maybe... MAYBE... but for precision, I don't see any value in a weaker shooting hand grip

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Post by Pinetree 1/21/2023, 10:12 am

Aimpoint abandoned my older model.

I currently have three Ultradot sights, they are good enough for me.
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Post by mikemyers 1/21/2023, 12:01 pm

10sandxs wrote:...if your shooting 1 handed,  that's the "zins" grip. Works great for him,  but I spent a lot of time and money to find out it doesn't work for me.  
If your shooting 2 handed,  I don't belive in the 70/30 rule and isometric tension for precision shooting. .......  but for precision, I don't see any value in a weaker shooting hand grip
My one-hand shooting with a 1911 shows my inability to hold the (heavy) gun up in front of me.  I should have started Bullseye when I was 29, not 75. Every year I get worse.  But the Bullseye matches held at my range are for one or two hands, and I shoot better with two.  I've been practicing lately at 15 yards (which our club uses, along with 25).  It's very easy to experiment, and compare.  With the one inch Ultradot, I can shoot reasonably well.  With the Aimpoint H-1, my ability to hold the gun steady, on target, is greatly reduced.  Put the Uotradot back on, and especially with my new choice in Wilson HAP practice ammo, I got my best results yesterday.

Photo below:  15 yards, two-handed, with the insert showing the Wilson 200gr lead (wadcutter??) rounds, and the targets showing my new 200 gr HAP 770 FPS rounds.
For the Baer, I re-sighted the gun in for sub-6-o'clock hold, which helped.

aimpoint or ultradot  Img_6617


Wilson remanufactured target ammo, lead on left, HAP on right:
aimpoint or ultradot  Img_6618

I was using random targets for practice.  The Left target is B-8, and the right target is B-16.  
With the Ultradot, that's the best I currently know how to do two-handed.
For the Baer, with the HAP ammo, this is the best I've ever shot at 15 yards.

Next time I move the targets back to where I feel they belong, 25 yards.


>>>>In this thread, the only comparison I am working on is Aimpoint vs. Ultradot. <<<<


For me, consistently, my 1911 remains steady with steel sights or the 1" Ultradot.
For me, consistently, my 1911 becomes less steady with the Aimpoint, mounted towards the front or the rear.  No difference I can notice.

Also, again, for both guns, this video shows how I am now trying to shoot:


For one hand shooting, I have tried to follow the advice from Brian
(I just don't get results like Brian !! )
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