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Considering a Marvel or Nelson

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rkittine
DA/SA
Blazin
ric1911a1
hg401
STEVE SAMELAK
james r chapman
RodJ
NukeMMC
chiz1180
Jon Eulette
L. Boscoe
Grunt
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by Grunt 1/9/2023, 10:00 pm

I currently use a M-41 7".  It's an older one (80s) but it's still finicky.  For example, during the winter the slight drop in temperature affects cycling until it warms up (the chamber might be too tight?)  It's also developed another issue with misfires which doesn't appear to be an easy fix (long-story).  So, I've been looking over Marvels and Nelson.  (Yes, I've read the thread on "SW-41 vs. Marvel 1911")

But as I read more about the Marvel and Nelson, they seem to have their own set of problems.  Non of these options are particularly cheap, and I wonder if I'm just trading one set of known problems for another.

I'd like to hear from some 41 owners that have tried / own a Marvel / Nelson and can give me a sense of "is it worth it to switch" perspective.  Otherwise I'm considering sending the 41 to Ten-Ring for barrel liner (fairly cheap by comparison.)

Thanks!

Grunt

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Post by L. Boscoe 1/9/2023, 10:17 pm

don't have a 41, but do have a Ruger voltquaren((?)converted  that is nice but nowhere near as good as my Marvel on a good 45 frame. Mine came with a barrel that tested 0.75 in group at 50 yards, and I find the
weight of the whole setup with a  tube scope to be just about perfect.

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Post by Jon Eulette 1/9/2023, 11:10 pm

I’d have Dave Sams (Sams Custom Guns) line the barrel.
Typical 41 issues stem from loose breech face to slide. That causes many problems.
I own Marvels and a Nelson. They all run perfectly. I use Colt steel magazines on all of them. Get several different recoil spring poundage’s and you should be good to go. I don’t use lock back on any of my conversions.
Jon
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by chiz1180 1/10/2023, 8:34 am

I started with a conversion but I have a 5 1/2" barrel 41, I primarily shoot a conversion but I do enjoy my 41. It sounds obvious but something easy to over look is that weight and balance. If pick up your 41 and you like the way it feels to shoot, getting the issues it has addressed may makes sense. 

I have both Marvel's and Nelsons, I like them both with a slight preference to Nelson. The only real issue I have had with them is one of the marvels is not easy on firing pins (I am on my 5th one). Colt Ace mags are nice, but not necessarily needed if you are on a strict budget. One thing to be aware of if you run the Ace mags (or metal 22 mags in general) if dropped just right, the feed lips can get tweaked and potentially cause issues if you don't notice. 

If you have a 1911 available without any modifications that would impede the use of a conversion (heavily peened rails, accurails, ect.) it could be worth trying. If you need to start from scratch and get a base gun, I would see if you can find someone local who has one you can try one first.
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by NukeMMC 1/10/2023, 12:31 pm

Grunt wrote:I currently use a M-41 7".  It's an older one (80s) but it's still finicky.  For example, during the winter the slight drop in temperature affects cycling until it warms up (the chamber might be too tight?)  It's also developed another issue with misfires which doesn't appear to be an easy fix (long-story).  So, I've been looking over Marvels and Nelson.  (Yes, I've read the thread on "SW-41 vs. Marvel 1911")

But as I read more about the Marvel and Nelson, they seem to have their own set of problems.  Non of these options are particularly cheap, and I wonder if I'm just trading one set of known problems for another.

I'd like to hear from some 41 owners that have tried / own a Marvel / Nelson and can give me a sense of "is it worth it to switch" perspective.  Otherwise I'm considering sending the 41 to Ten-Ring for barrel liner (fairly cheap by comparison.)

Thanks!

Grunt
I have had both and now have neither.
I have been spoiled by what is arguably the best US trigger in a 22, the High Standard. 
When I got my 41, it was "rode hard and put up wet".  Wouldn't shoot better than a 1" group at 50ft from the bench.  Sent it to KC Crawford and he had Ten Ring put a liner in and he did a trigger job and ejector/slide stop mod.  Pistol was very accurate then, and even more importantly, RELIABLE.  I just couldn't get used to the trigger.  A few years ago, I put a Marvel conversion on top of a Springfield frame that George Madore had worked.  Had some feeding issues that took some work to get past,   getting the 1911 trigger down to 2-2.5# was a bit more of a challenge.  That pistol was plent accurate but marginally reliable.  Had i sent it to someone who knew what they were doing to tune and make reliable, I may not have let it go.  Again, I was just too familiar and comfortable shooting my Victor.

As you alluded to.  You may be trading one set of problems for another.  Even my beloved Victors required a TON of my time getting the magazines to be just right.  Now that I get them right, they run 100%.  If you are comfortable shooting the 41, spending south of $300 to get it lined isn't a bad investment, but following that up with a tune by a 41 Smith like KC would be just as important.  In the mean time, get a 6.5mm rifle bore brush and scrub that chamber!
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by Grunt 1/10/2023, 5:14 pm

Thank you, everyone.  I appreciate the input.

Grunt

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by RodJ 1/10/2023, 9:35 pm

Trying to understand how relining the m41 solves the reliability issues? I have a model 41 and an original non-lockback Marvel. No difference in reliability - both reliable at indoor shooting.

But to echo NukeMMC’s comments, the HS Victor gets the win for accuracy (for my abilities) and best trigger.

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by Grunt 1/11/2023, 6:08 pm

RodJ wrote:Trying to understand how relining the m41 solves the reliability issues? 

Good question and part of that "long story" I mentioned.

I discovered the firing pin had broken.  So I took it out and replaced it with the firing pin from my other 41.  What I didn't realize is that it was a tad longer.  After about a 30 minute dry firing session the new pin did a number on the chamber.  It would barely chamber a round, and extraction was not happening.  I took a fine round file and carefully removed the metal that was now pushed into the opening of the chamber.  It'll chamber, fire, and eject now.  But, I'm getting much more frequent misfires in spite of a good dent in the primer (this wasn't a problem prior the the FP swap.)  My best guess, which aligns with what others have said, is there's not enough metal behind the rim to enable reliable ignition of the primer.  As far as I can tell, lining the barrel (with new chamber) is the solution.

Grunt

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by james r chapman 1/11/2023, 7:25 pm

you might want to add Advantage Arms to your list also.
an early design of the Marvel/Nelson uppers . works well for a bit less than the others.
most parts cross over.
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Post by STEVE SAMELAK 1/11/2023, 8:22 pm

Grunt wrote:
RodJ wrote:Trying to understand how relining the m41 solves the reliability issues? 

Good question and part of that "long story" I mentioned.

I discovered the firing pin had broken.  So I took it out and replaced it with the firing pin from my other 41.  What I didn't realize is that it was a tad longer.  After about a 30 minute dry firing session the new pin did a number on the chamber.  It would barely chamber a round, and extraction was not happening.  I took a fine round file and carefully removed the metal that was now pushed into the opening of the chamber.  It'll chamber, fire, and eject now.  But, I'm getting much more frequent misfires in spite of a good dent in the primer (this wasn't a problem prior the the FP swap.)  My best guess, which aligns with what others have said, is there's not enough metal behind the rim to enable reliable ignition of the primer.  As far as I can tell, lining the barrel (with new chamber) is the solution.

Grunt
I haven't needed it....yet, but the better way to fix a dinged chamber would be to use a chamber iron.
It reforms the chamber entry without removing material.
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by hg401 3/14/2023, 10:46 am

james r chapman wrote:you might want to add Advantage Arms to your list also.
an early design of the Marvel/Nelson uppers . works well for a bit less than the others.
most parts cross over.

Looking into Marvel vs Nelson vs Advantage.  Seems the Advantage is quite a bit cheaper than the others.  But, according to their website, sold out.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but any real world experience with accuracy on the various options?  My "personal long line" is 25 yds.

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Post by ric1911a1 3/14/2023, 11:06 am

I'm very happy with my Nelson on a dedicated Caspian stainless frame. Zero problems. Most any ammunition works well.

Best .22 I've ever had, and I have had a few...........

Just starting to play with a FWB AW-93 that I bought for a very good price............

Ric
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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by Blazin 3/16/2023, 7:33 am

I just switched from a high mileage first year long barrel 41 to a Nelson kit with the 5 oz barrel weight (looks like a comp). I've only fired one league with the Nelson so far and I met my score expectation, so initial impressions are good. The gun hangs better/steadier than the 41 did and the shorter sight radius makes TF & RF easier. With the barrel weight the gun moves less & more predictably in TF & RF. But the 41 was amazingly accurate, I fired many 1.5" 50 yard groups with the 41. The 41 had a few different types of mystery malfs, and I wasn't willing to put $1,000 gunsmith bill into a gun worth about that. I tried everything I could to get it running, and a deep clean of the chamber & throat did improve things quite a bit.  The 41 was a beauty for sure, and the trigger was to die for.

I'm scoping the Nelson on Sunday to test at 50 yards, but so far I'm happy I no longer am worrying about alibis, no regrets. I have it on a dedicated frame with a trigger set to 2 pounds 1.5 ounces.

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by james r chapman 3/16/2023, 9:45 am

I found the Nelson to easily hold “X” ring groups at 50 Y from a Rest.
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Post by DA/SA 3/16/2023, 9:53 am

I found the same as Jim above with my Marvel shooting CCI SV.
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Post by rkittine 3/16/2023, 10:51 am

I am very happy with my Advantage Arms Target Grade Conversion Kit.
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Post by Steuw22 3/19/2023, 11:23 pm

I started with a Model 41 and didn't really have any trouble with it, but recently switched to the Nelson conversion to get more practice  with my 1911; I've been using it a few months with no real issues.  It is accurate and I really like getting more practice with the 1911 grip and trigger.

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Post by JRV 3/20/2023, 9:15 am

I shoot my best scores with a Marvel conversion kit (irons, heavy rib) on a Kimber lower tuned to run .22. Zero malfunctions with Eley Club.

It handles the exact same as my .45.

The nice thing about nicer target rimfires and nice conversion kits is, if you try one and it’s not for you, you can probably get most of your money out of it in a sale. It makes experimenting pretty convenient.

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty Re: Considering a Marvel or Nelson

Post by oldeyes 3/21/2023, 3:11 pm

grunt -- dont give up on the 41 just yet
i now shoot a Nelson, accurate but more for .45 practice, but in the day my primary .22's were 41's, 7 3/8" and 5 1/2" barrels- the long barrel was a first year production with the 5 1/2 being an A series 41- the 41's , especially the A-series and older are exceptional for b.e. -
trial and error to find the most compatable ammo is important and perhaps a lighter recoil spring --
all i ever did during the season was brush out the chamber and run a few patches to clean up the barrel -
before i would go to all the expense of a conversion , lower , and all the necessities that go along with it, i would hunt for an older 41, mount a sightron, and STS out of it --
JMHO

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Considering a Marvel or Nelson Empty 41 vs Marvel

Post by Butlerbob 3/30/2023, 9:00 am

I've only been shooting Bullseye for 2.5 years.  I shot a 41 for 1 year and had lots of range issues.  The gun wouldn't grab the case to eject and after the third replacement by the gunsmith I sold the gun.  I currently have a Marvel on my Norinco 1911.  It functions reliably and it's basically the same weight as my Springfield 1911 that I use.  The bottom line is the Marvel worked better for me, but I'm really a novice at this sport.

The thing that's helped me get more consistent is that I have Precision Target Pistol grips on all of my pistols, Springfield 1911, Norinco 1911 (Marvel), and Ruger MK III 22/45 Target model.  The grips are an identical feel and fit.

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