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CZ Shadow 2 ?

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Steve B
Asa Yam
L. Boscoe
Novak
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Post by Novak Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:26 pm

Guys,

     Need help selecting a 9 mm for Bullseye competition. Only stipulation is that it must have a barrel length of less than 5" and have iron sights. This is a rule for my club Carry Match. I believe the CZ Shadow 2 has a barrel length of 4.7", which complies. It is not a cheap gun, as it ranges from $1,300 to $1,800.
      A Model 52 seems to have several problems according to some shooters I know. One is reliability. Too many alibis in a match. So I shy away from that one.
     Can anyone out there advise me of some other brand and model, or is the CZ a good one? Thanks to you all.
Novak
Novak

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Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 88
Location : Port Saint Lucie, Florida

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Post by L. Boscoe Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:32 pm

CZ shadow SA is a nice pistol. Probably all you would want.  The Shadow 2 Orange
is SA/DA and has some serious gunsmithing done on it, considerably more $$.
 I have both and am not a
good enough shot to tell the difference.  I like the SA better for BE shooting.

L. Boscoe

Posts : 218
Join date : 2022-08-07
Age : 87

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Post by Asa Yam Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:34 pm

IMO, try the SiG 9 mm P320 Full Size or M17 Pistols.  Decent trigger pull out of the box, can be modded to 4 lbs. with the correct mix of parts.  (There is a thread on this on the board, will post link in separate post.)  You want the 9 mm full size (non-X5) or M17 pistols, as these have the 4.7" barrel, and are cheaper than the other guns in the product line.  Best of all, the 9 mm P320 full size and M17 pistols were listed in CMP pistol rules as "M17 pistol", so firing one in EIC matches is legal.  From the 2023 CMP Pistol Competition Rules at https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2023PistolRules.pdf:
Rule 4.1, CMP National Trophy/EIC Pistol and Revolver Rules
a) Pistol Design. The pistol must be a semi-automatic pistol. The pistol design should be of a type that is suitable for use in a general duty scenario (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.).
(Appears to have changed from the 2022 Rules.)

Neatest part of the 320/M17 design is the interchangeable grip module, guns from the shop come with a "medium" grip.  Replace the grip with another one (pretty easy, fieldstrip the gun, and remove the trigger module, install it in "new" grip, and reassemble pistol) and the "feel" of the pistol changes.  Again, purely legal under the pre-2023 rules, the 2023 rules appear to comply as well:
Rule 4.1, CMP National Trophy/EIC Pistol and Revolver Rules
e) Grips. Grips must adhere to the general design parameters of the original pistol as manufactured. Grips may not provide any additional orthopedic support (i.e., thumb rest, palm rest, palm swell, etc.). Grips must be functionally identical for either right- or left-hand use.

These pistols appear to handle 147 grain JHP bullets, though it does appear to depend on projectile length - mine don't shoot 147 Hornadys well (truncated cone nose profile), but do well with Ranier 147 plated JHPs (truncated round-nose ogive profile).  Have some 147 grain Noslers to try (again, a truncated round-nose JHP design), will report back to board with eventual results.

Hope this helps.

Asa Yam

Posts : 197
Join date : 2018-09-15

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Post by Asa Yam Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:56 pm

Thread on modifying a P320 trigger:  https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13547-adding-weight-to-a-p320-trigger

NOTE:  DO NOT add the overtravel stop in the Grayguns trigger kit.  I found it is all too easy to let off the trigger following a shot, making it all too possible for an AD on the following shot.

NOTE:  The trigger pull of the pistols is two stage.  Stage 1 is NOT creep, despite it feeling as such.  The "creep" is actually "cocking" the striker mechanism in the pistol.  To "safe" the pistol at this stage, let off the trigger.  Total pull weight is found by adding Stage 1 to Stage 2.

Forgot to mention another plus to the P320/M17 design:  They are relatively inexpensive.  Here is a listing of a P320 from a "Sportsman's Warehouse" in Warminster. PA:
https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/handguns/sig-sauer-p320-full-sized-9mm-luger-47in-black-pistol-171-rounds/p/1402978

And here is a listing for an M17:
https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/handguns/sig-sauer-p320-m17-9mm-luger-47in-w-manual-safety-coyote-tan-pistol-171-rounds/p/1515268

So for less than $800, you too can have a "Service Pistol" with a nice trigger pull.

Asa Yam

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Post by Steve B Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:07 pm

I would prefer the heavier CZ pistol, but would send it to CZ Custom for their Accu bushing install.

Steve B

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Post by Asa Yam Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:27 pm

Not sure about the CZ, but my Witness' owner's manual (stainless steel frame and slide) says nothing about +P ammo.  SiG says the life of the P320 is limited to 20,000 rounds of +P ammo.  NOTE: 9 mm NATO ammo is loaded in the +P pressure range. (As an aside this may be why many WW II 9 mm Luger pistols do not reliably cycle when commercial 9 mm ammo is used.)

AHA!  Found a copy of the CZ Shadow manual online (https://cz-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Instruction-Manual-cz-75-SP-01-Shadow_en.pdf), it says this about ammunition:
Ammunition 
Use only factory-manufactured ammunition of appropriate caliber, which are in compliance with CIP regulations (International Proof Commission for Firearms) or SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute Inc. of the United States). The use of other cartridges could damage the firearm or cause injury to the shooter.

Food for thought.

Asa Yam

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Post by RADJAG Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:54 pm

Dear Novak,

I see from your OP that you are 86 years young - good going. I attended the 90th birthday party of a notable shooter in Phoenix last year - he still shoots Bullseye remarkably well.

In your OP you mention the Model 52 - am I correct in thinking that you are referring to the S&W Model 52? That is a 38 special wadcutter gun, very nice, but, yes, can be quite finicky about ammo and reliability. Probably not a good choice.

You seem to be looking for a 9mm gun as your first choice. Whilst the CZ Shadow and similar variants are all very good guns, they are comparatively large and heavy, with double stack magazines and hence large grip girth. For those of us getting on in age I'm not sure those guns are a good choice.

My recommendation would be for a more svelte single stack magazine gun. A good 9mm 1911 would certainly work. But my favourite is the SIG P210 target - made in USA model. I had one for a while and got most of my Distinguished points with it, preferred lower velocity 147gr ammo, but was very accurate indeed and minimal "snap" with that ammo.

YMMV

RADJAG

Posts : 47
Join date : 2023-01-22
Age : 68

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Post by Wobbley Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:03 pm

Asa Yam wrote:Not sure about the CZ, but my Witness' owner's manual (stainless steel frame and slide) says nothing about +P ammo.  SiG says the life of the P320 is limited to 20,000 rounds of +P ammo.  NOTE: 9 mm NATO ammo is loaded in the +P pressure range. (As an aside this may be why many WW II 9 mm Luger pistols do not reliably cycle when commercial 9 mm ammo is used.)

AHA!  Found a copy of the CZ Shadow manual online (https://cz-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Instruction-Manual-cz-75-SP-01-Shadow_en.pdf), it says this about ammunition:
Ammunition 
Use only factory-manufactured ammunition of appropriate caliber, which are in compliance with CIP regulations (International Proof Commission for Firearms) or SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute Inc. of the United States). The use of other cartridges could damage the firearm or cause injury to the shooter.

Food for thought.
As a:  I have two CZ 9mm a 75B and an P01.  Every CZ pistol is fine with “+P” 9mm even as a (Reasonably) steady diet.  It is used by Delta Forces so it is capable of handling NATO spec ammo.   That said, I have loaded ammo as light as 3.5 RedDot and a 125 coated cast bullets.  The 75 ran fine, as did my WW2 P-38.  My Erfurt WW1 Luger ran fine with 3.7 RedDot and same bullet. So they can run fine with light and Mil-spec ammo.
Wobbley
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Post by L. Boscoe Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:02 am

A word from the geezer gallery-I am 86 and prefer the large grips of CZ, Tan,
and have the NilGrif grips on 1911.

L. Boscoe

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Post by tovaert Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:13 pm

My LGS has one of these (new) but in 9mm for $1100.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/963592287

Discontinued model, but a pretty nice SA trigger that can supposedly be *increased* to 2.5# via a kit sold by Cajun Gun Wks. Big double-stack grip, since you like that. Send it to CZ Custom to have the slide milled for their adapter plate for a particular red dot, if you're planning on not shooting iron sights. Works well, totals about $250. 

It's a pivoting SA trigger, so different than a 1911. You have to like that movement. 

Another issue with CZs is that their trigger/sear springs are odd-shaped torsional springs. They are not simple compression springs that you can source/change through an online supplier, so if altering trigger weight is important (competition?), you have to factor that into the decision (is it even available?). The Sig P210A can be increased to 4# (EIC legal) through two fairly simple compression spring replacements. A 1911 requires two hands, a few fingers, and patience.

tovaert

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Post by blindfaith429 Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:17 am

I have a Shadow 2 SA I picked up from the local shop for $1350. I was upgrading from a standard 75, so I could tell a side-by-side difference in the 2. Fantastic pistol, the Shadow 2.

Cajun Gun works and CZ Custom are 2 places that have almost anything you want / need.

blindfaith429

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