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Source for VV N310 BE loads

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Post by L. Boscoe 3/31/2023, 10:25 pm

I looked on the posts in this site, and I see where one Master has 185 and 200 gr bullets over 4.1 and 4.4
of N310, but no velocity info.
I have loaded some zero 185 HP over 3.1 gr of N310 and find they shoot well at close range in my indoor
range.  I checked the load three times, by loading ten cases on my 550 B, dumping all ten into the scale hopper and getting a weight of the ten -it came out 31 gr every time.  I also
checked the calibration of my RCBS manual scale with test weights, and it is dead on.
This seems odd, as none of the charts I know of show loads this low.  I will get my chrono going next 
week and see what velocities are doing, but if anybody has loaded this low, I would like to hear about it.
The rounds do not show any tiny recoil or such, so they are ejecting out of my 1911 with no problem

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Post by NukeMMC 4/1/2023, 6:55 am

Most of the 4.1-4.5gr loads you see on here for the 185jhp Nosler and Zero bullets are for outdoor 50yd performance. Bringing it in to 25yds or 50ft you can seriously download it and still clean the target.

Some will argue that too low of a charge will create overpressure due to secondary pressure surges when the bullet hits the lands. I cannot remember seeing any actual lab tests to prove or disprove that theory though.
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Post by Allgoodhits 4/1/2023, 10:38 am

You should specify whether the bullets you are referring to are lead, coated, plated or jacketed. I believe it is fair to say that many find lead, coated and plated bullets have very similar load data however, the load data for jacked bullets is much different.

Check the VV website for their data.

For me, in my guns:
With 180 - 200 grain lead or coated bullets I use 3.9 grains of VV N310. I can load as low as 3.5 gr with non slide mounted scope guns, or non-scoped guns. For my slide mounted scope guns I find 3.7 is marginally reliable cycling the guns. All pretty accurate to 50 yds. I think 3.9 is more accurate at 50 yds.

With 185 gr jacketed bullets I load from 4.1 - 4.5 gr VV N310. Lighter load for non scoped, or no slide mounted scope guns and hotter load for slide mounted scope guns. Again, all pretty accurate to 50 yds, I find 4.3 - 4.5 gr slightly more accurate.

Light loads an pressure. I am not a scientist, nor a ballastician, I have read or heard that a too light load can create a pressure spike, or even a case rupture near the rim. I believe what occurs is a flashover effect. The powder as positioned in the horizontal case is so low, that when the primer ignites, it flashes over the powder, then ignites the powder at the base of the bullet first. It then burns rearward toward the rim. I have read that this ignition, may initially cause enough pressure to slightly unlock the barrel, then when the ignition of all the powder occurs the barrel may be slighly unlocked, thus causing a rupture case at the bottom rear at the feed ramp. I have seen and experienced a rupture case like this when the load was not a hot load. Whether it was caused by the above condition or not, I do not know. 

Suffice it to say all load data lists a starting point. This certainly is to prevent bullets getting stuck in the barrel, could it be because of the above scenario too, I do not know? Another comment. Is you brass very sooty, or smoke fouled? If so, it may not be generating enough pressure to get a good chamber seal, thus permitting some blow back, as the resisitance for the gas to escape finds an easier path blowing backwards, instead of pushing the bullet out the barrel. You load data is light compared to my findings and experiences. But if it works for you, out of your guns I guess that is all that matters.
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Post by L. Boscoe 4/1/2023, 12:37 pm

Thanks- I tumble clean brass until it is very shiny in corncob media, then spray lube
the standing brass on all sides and down the inside and let them dry overnight.
So the brass is clean.  I had a problem with my old powder dispenser and must have inadvertently set the new one so low.  I had new zero brass plated hp's and
made up about 20 to test fire.  They did fine, so I made some more-then i checked
the load weight and was surprised by the low amount.  I will chrono these next week to see what I have.

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Post by Allgoodhits 4/1/2023, 12:52 pm

L. Boscoe wrote:Thanks- I tumble clean brass until it is very shiny in corncob media, then spray lube
the standing brass on all sides and down the inside and let them dry overnight.
So the brass is clean.  I had a problem with my old powder dispenser and must have inadvertently set the new one so low.  I had new zero brass plated hp's and
made up about 20 to test fire.  They did fine, so I made some more-then i checked
the load weight and was surprised by the low amount.  I will chrono these next week to see what I have.

So you are using ZERO 185 gr Jacketed Hollow Points. I think they make two. A catalog #185 and #187. Both copper jacketed. Data should be very similar for those. I am surprised that such a low charge weight of VV N310 works.

Regarding the cleanliness of the brass, I meant after firing. With very low pressures, often the brass is almost blackened after firing. Noticeably more dirty than a typical factory load after firing. I am referring to the outside of the brass.
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Post by L. Boscoe 4/1/2023, 1:27 pm

Oh, ok, I did notice some of the brass was dirty. Maybe 3.1 is too low. I will go ahead and bump it up a few tenths just to be sure.

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Post by PMcfall 4/1/2023, 1:52 pm

Aren't you using a carbide sizing die?  If so, no lube is necessary.  Even if you do use lube, I wouldn't put it inside the case.
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Post by L. Boscoe 4/1/2023, 9:57 pm

I think a tad of the case lube helps release the belling operation, at least that is
the intent - there is just a bit of overspray from the side application that gets into
the case mouth. I notice less resistance to pulling the powder funnel out when going to the next stage, although I would not bet the farm on that

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Post by BE Mike 4/2/2023, 9:48 am

Loading 185 gr. JHP bullets for indoor shooting is wasting money. Besides being much cheaper, coated or lead SWC bullets at typical indoor range distances will group very well and cut cleaner holes, which makes scoring much easier.
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Post by Wobbley 4/2/2023, 11:11 am

Some indoor ranges require jacketed or plated.
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Post by S148 4/2/2023, 11:55 am

There is some load data here for jacketed bullets

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418

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Post by Wobbley 4/2/2023, 12:43 pm

S148 wrote:There is some load data here for jacketed bullets

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418
The images would not load.  This includes tha data tables.
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Post by S148 4/2/2023, 12:48 pm

Wobbley wrote:
S148 wrote:There is some load data here for jacketed bullets

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418
The images would not load.  This includes tha data tables.

It works okay for me, but I've had trouble with other websites, so I know how that goes. Sometimes using a different browser will solve the problem.

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Post by L. Boscoe 4/2/2023, 4:58 pm

S148 wrote:
Wobbley wrote:
S148 wrote:There is some load data here for jacketed bullets

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418
The images would not load.  This includes tha data tables.

It works okay for me, but I've had trouble with other websites, so I know how that goes. Sometimes using a different browser will solve the problem.
I found a decent site- looks like 3.9gr will deliver 700 fps with the 185 Zero's

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Post by rsp 4/3/2023, 2:03 pm

One thing that is sometimes overlooked is the choice* of primer. I always thought it didn't matter and the primer was just there to get the propellant started. Recently I got a chronograph and decided to find out.

Using my 5" 1911 I tested 4gr N310 with 200gr Zero LSWC, in new Starline brass, with 4 different types of primers.
I loaded to a COAL of ~1.235" and crimped to ~.465".

With each primer type I tested 10 shots powder forward (starting low and raising gun to target) and 10 shots powder rearward (starting high and lowering gun to target).

My results were:

CCI #300: 667 FPS (641 fwd, 693 rear)
Winchester WLP: 730 FPS (719 fwd, 741 rear)
Ginex LPP: 734 FPS (721 fwd, 748 rear)
CCI #350: 747 FPS (733 fwd, 761 rear)

Now your mileage may vary as far as which primer is "hottest". For all I know that might change from batch to batch. But clearly at the light charge levels we use for BE the primer accounts for a decent chunk of velocity. Point is if somebody else says they load X.X grains and you go "wow, that's a lot" or "wow that's a little" they might be using a different primer than you and it can make a difference at least equal to a couple tenths of a grain of powder.

That being said no matter what primer you use 3.1gr sounds pretty darn light to me. I would be surprised if those crack 600FPS. I would also expect that you get a lot of unburnt powder. I tried 3.3gr N310/CCI300/Zero 185 LSWC in a revolver once, it was before I had a chronograph so I don't know how slow they were going, but they barely kicked and every spent case had some N310 sticks left in it, toasted to a light orange color. The powder would visibly accumulate on the shooting bench as I ejected the moon clips. If I was shooting an autoloader I might not have noticed since the powder left inside the case would get scattered into the air during ejection.

However if they function your gun reliably and shoot on call, what else matters?

* ("choice" is a generous term under current market conditions... more like whatever you can get)

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Post by Orion 6/12/2023, 11:29 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:For me, in my guns:
With 180 - 200 grain lead or coated bullets I use 3.9 grains of VV N310. I can load as low as 3.5 gr with non slide mounted scope guns, or non-scoped guns. For my slide mounted scope guns I find 3.7 is marginally reliable cycling the guns. All pretty accurate to 50 yds. I think 3.9 is more accurate at 50 yds.

With 185 gr jacketed bullets I load from 4.1 - 4.5 gr VV N310. Lighter load for non scoped, or no slide mounted scope guns and hotter load for slide mounted scope guns. Again, all pretty accurate to 50 yds, I find 4.3 - 4.5 gr slightly more accurate.

What is your crimp size on these loads?
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