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Why do I have to adjust my Ultradot on Different Ranges

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Why do I have to adjust my Ultradot on Different Ranges Empty Why do I have to adjust my Ultradot on Different Ranges

Post by Gravy Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:41 am

I travel and shoot indoor precision and outdoor 2700s, Free Pistol, ... and I always make sure my pistols are cleaned, fouled with a few shots down range and sighted in for the correct distance (e.g., long-line) before I leave for the shoot.  However, I frequently find that I have to rezero my ultra dots during the initial few shots of the competition.  It varies from 3 to 8 clicks (both horizontal and vertical) depending on the range.  I shoot expert and am tickling master;  so, I am trying to understand how not to lose these precious points.  For what it is worth, I have noticed this indoors for 50' shoots with open sights - not so much with Ultradots.  This article explains lighting impacts on long-distance shooters [url=https://thearmsguide.com/5331/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-light-effects/#:~:text=Light doesn%E2%80%99t directly affect bullet trajectory%2C but it,and light intensity. This leads to aiming errors.]Long Range Shooting: External Ballistics - Light Effects (thearmsguide.com)[/url];  but, I am having trouble seeing (pun intended) how lighting gives me this same issue at only 50 yards.

So, my questions are 1) what is really going on that drives ultra dot adjustments for 50 yard from one range to another and 2) does anyone have any insights as to how to overcome this - aside from the obvious "just adjust the sights and shoot"? 

If my questions are answered elsewhere, please just direct me to it.

{Side note:  This was never a problem until I purchased guns that will hold X-Ring, developed loads that they will shoot and I learned to call my shots.  Why do I have to adjust my Ultradot on Different Ranges Icon_wink}

Gravy

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Post by bruce martindale Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:49 pm

I would venture that your grip (force, finger pressure distribution etc) is not the same as during training. You didn't say if the change was high or low or even consistent.  Next comes trigger control with equal or stronger effect. Match anxiety and expectations is a big deal

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Post by Gravy Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:18 pm

Thank you!  Good thinking and questions and I agree grip, trigger control and anxiety are real issues which I have dealt with in the past.  I do limited training (non-competitive shooting) and the training I do is inside laser based slow fire.  I do compete a bit (2-900's per week and travel to a 2700+ a time or 2 a month) - anxiety on the line has been an issue;  but, is pretty much a thing of the past for me.  I have talked with a number of shooters that are better than myself and they all point to lighting.  For what it is worth, three of the four guns I am dealing with are Pardini's that are very similar.  
For the 2700, the 22 and centerfire are both Pardinis and they are both set up the same for grip and trigger.  Albeit, the 32 is a bit heavier.  The grips on these guns pretty much makes doing it wrong a nonissue for me.  The 22 has a 30 mm Ultradot on it and I find I have to move it more (usually to the left and down a bit).  I also shoot Standard pistol with a near identical Pardini (6" bbl vs 5") and even with the open sights, i still have to adjust the sites pretty much the same as the ultradot.  The 32 has a 1" tube on it and it does not seem to cause me to adjust the point of aim as much as the 22s.  Still it is possible that I am doing something different with grip and trigger control and I will assess these.  You may be on to something!  Thanks again.

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Post by bruce martindale Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:14 pm

It’s HOW you grip; Grip high ( mostly middle finger) vs grip low (too much pinkie) fingertips on, fingertips off, finger pressure variation during shot, …..trigger pull fast, pull slow, slow with last oh-no second jerk, fast with jerk ALL hit vastly different. 

I never bought into the lighting effects but I think those could matter most to HM.good luck, youll get there

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Post by jwax Sun Jul 02, 2023 9:48 am

Over the years, I've found that "chasing the dot" was an exercise in futility.
If I'm hitting off center, it is 95% ME, not the sights that have changed.
A match pistol will not change zero by itself.
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Post by UnGe Sun Jul 02, 2023 12:44 pm

This effect is well known for irons, as lighting greatly affects the amount and shape of target blur. But I did not ever had to adjust more than 2MOA. For the red dot there may be the same cause, but should be much less pronounced, so 3-8 licks point to something other than light.

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Post by bruce martindale Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:48 am

Mirage can be a player for indoor ranges with unheated targets and heated/ventilated shooting areas though.

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Post by Jon Eulette Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:10 am

Prado Olympic Shooting Park in Chino California is the worst range I’ve shot for constantly changing lighting conditions. Always prayed for overcast weather:)

A failure I see with lower classification shooters is waiting too long to make a change. Every time we pick up a pistol at the range something is different. We obviously strive for consistency, but there are many variables.

Say a SS shoots a 9 at 9 o’clock. Thoughts are typically “did I force the shot?”, “is my NPOA off?”, “are my sights off?”, the list goes on. So typical SS will shoot another shot concentrating harder and shoot another 9 near the first shot or maybe an 8 in the same vicinity. Then the thought process repeats itself, maybe even some doubt thrown in for good measure…….

A Master will have similar thoughts on the first shot but make a correction immediately; maybe two clicks right on the sights then shoot the next shot. Could be another 9 or maybe a scratch 10. Not bad but not a solid 10.

A HM will make a sight change, a foot change and possibly a grip change after the first shot! HM learn that you absolutely have to work and make quick corrections/changes to stay in the 10 ring or get in the 10 ring. The HM accounted for all potential issues immediately. Why shoot 3 or 4 shots to the left before realizing you need to change something or what you were thinking was wrong?

What’s worst thing that can happen making three corrections at once? A 10 at 3 o’clock? Pretty much. A HM knows that the foot change changes little. NPOA can be muscled and still shoot 10’s. It’s when you relax during the shot that it’s a problem. I’m not saying muscle through it, I’m just pointing out that it’s not crucial. A small sight change doesn’t change much either. Remember the 10 ring is pretty big! The small grip change…..as someone who dry fired a lot, I know that grip has a large affect on the trigger finger. If a shooter has a decent trigger pull but dot is moving a little left when hammer falls it’s usually grip related. But if you don’t dry fire and really train your gripping and trigger pull relationship you’ll never know.

So chasing the dot is a problem with basic fundamentals. It also should be minor adjustment from day to day or match to match. I shot a Hammerli 208 for many years. Had a cheap Tasco Pro Point II scope. I rarely made a sight change with that pistol. One click occasionally and two clicks almost never. I was routinely shooting high 880’s and 890’s every so often. I share this as an example of if you master the fundamentals and are paying attention to detail you can be very consistent with your sight adjustment/zero.

Iron sights do require sight changes to keep zeroed. I wouldn’t sweat it, just make the corrections. 

I recommend a dry fire training plan. Break down each fundamental and work on each alone. Work on something, not just that you’re dry firing. Spend more time on grip and trigger pull than the rest. Use a blank wall 85% of the time. You are looking for feedback on everything you do. 

Indoor targets are small, so it can be a pain staying in the 10 in comparison to outdoors. So I ask this question, are you shooting tight groups in wrong spot or are you shooting shots without a good group in the wrong spots?

Jon
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