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Springfield RO Target questions

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BE Mike
Rodger Barthlow
RoyDean
Jon Eulette
Al W.
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Post by Al W. 7/3/2023, 10:00 pm

Folks,
 I've been getting my feet wet in precision pistol and have been shooting a few guns , a HS Trophy,  S&W M52-1 and a Springfield
RO Target that I picked up before they discontinued them.
 The Trophy and 52 are both smoother than the RO which is near new having had only a couple hundred rounds run through it.
 I moved just before the lockdown and don't know any pistol smiths around here , but have begun asking around for recommendations.
 So , my take on the RO is positive. I'm not having problems with it but wouldn't mind someone going over the gun and trying to 
get the trigger as smooth as my HS and 52. Or I suppose I could just get to the range and run a  thousand rounds through it.
 I'm new to the 1911 thing. 
 Any advice ?
Al W.
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Post by Jon Eulette 7/3/2023, 10:56 pm

They build into great shooting pistols. As far as getting the trigger as nice as the HS, that’s not possible lol, will be heavier pull ( 3.5# vs. 2#). But replacing the stock MIM parts with quality steel parts helps a bunch. Stock parts can be used for trigger job, but they are really not quality parts that will last.
At a minimum you can get EGW angle bore bushing and EGW 0.200 slide stop pin to help with accuracy. Ultimately rebarreling is best thing you can do down the road.
Jon
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Post by RoyDean 7/4/2023, 6:39 am

IMHO, JE is being unusually modest - he can, and indeed has for me, get a Range Officer trigger as good as a HS 22, or indeed almost any other 22. No doubt there are other experts who might be able to achieve the same.

Can an inexperienced owner (or indeed almost all "gunsmiths") get a 1911 trigger perfect - unlikely. And, even with the very best artiste's, it might take them a couple of goes before getting it just right.

YMMV!

As for getting someone to upgrade your SARO, there are many folks who do good work. Getting it tightened up and a basic trigger job would be a good start. If you really want to progress I would advise you to get a rail installed and fit a cheap Ultradot 1" red dot (same for your 22). Roddy Toyota did a basic SARO upgrade for me (using the OEM barrel) a couple of years ago and it was good enough to get me to Master. JE is super busy, usually the other top guys are the same. Dave Salyer does good work and turns SARO jobs over fast. You can search for contact details on this forum.

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Post by Rodger Barthlow 7/4/2023, 8:34 am

RoyDean wrote:IMHO, JE is being unusually modest - he can, and indeed has for me, get a Range Officer trigger as good as a HS 22, or indeed almost any other 22. No doubt there are other experts who might be able to achieve the same.

Can an inexperienced owner (or indeed almost all "gunsmiths") get a 1911 trigger perfect - unlikely. And, even with the very best artiste's, it might take them a couple of goes before getting it just right.

YMMV!

As for getting someone to upgrade your SARO, there are many folks who do good work. Getting it tightened up and a basic trigger job would be a good start. If you really want to progress I would advise you to get a rail installed and fit a cheap Ultradot 1" red dot (same for your 22). Roddy Toyota did a basic SARO upgrade for me (using the OEM barrel) a couple of years ago and it was good enough to get me to Master. JE is super busy, usually the other top guys are the same. Dave Salyer does good work and turns SARO jobs over fast. You can search for contact details on this forum.
JE does excellent work. I just wish I could shoot the 1911 he rebarreled and did a trigger job on for me as good as the pistol is capable of. 
Struggling to shoot good scores at 50yds and it's not the gun or ammo but my inconsistent hold and trigger squeeze/ jerking the trigger.
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Post by BE Mike 7/4/2023, 9:03 am

I have one of these kits installed in a SA Trophy Match 1911. It is a huge improvement over the stock trigger pull: https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CS0105
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Post by Kp321 7/4/2023, 9:16 am

BE Mike wrote:I have one of these kits installed in a SA Trophy Match 1911. It is a huge improvement over the stock trigger pull: https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CS0105
I was getting ready to make the same suggestion. I have had excellent results with the C&S hammer, sear and disco kits. Not cheap but neither is my time. The EGW bushing is also a very good move. 
The Springfield pistols I have worked on feel gritty out of the box which will get better with shooting but a little work with fine stones will speed the process. The first place I work is the disco rail where the s/n is ep’d. The disco dragging over this area is terrible!  Most of them are engraved too deep to totally remove but knocking the tops off of the etching sure helps. While you are there, bevel the front of the disco rail, also known as a 52 bevel. Look at the disco rail on your 52 to see what I mean.

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Post by jgolba 7/4/2023, 12:27 pm

I will start by introducing my self as a forum "member" that is also has experience with a Springfield Armory Range Officer ("RO") and Jon Eulette.

Soon after gettng my RO wanted to shoot it wth an Ultradot Matchdot II red dot sight. At about that time I became aware of Jon's slide mounted optic rail. Long story short I contacted Jon and had him install the rail on my RO's slide. While working oin the slide he noticed a raised edge on the breechface and suggested it be fixed. I agreed. All this left me with a very positive experience with Jon (and, if you guessed there would be more to follow, then you are correct).

Fast forward a short time; I determined that I "needed" a trigger job and so, once again, contacted Jon. After some email correspondence, I faced the decision of having a reliable RO (with a lightened trigger pull) or a "Wadgun built to be as good as the best pistol on the line". I decided to go with the latter. This involved a full accuracy job including a KKM barrel. Was this cheap? NO. Did it take some time to complete? YES. Was it worth it? ABSOLUTELY YES!!!

I guess you can consider me an "Old Fart" that is trying to learn to be a reasonably good pistol shot. When I shoot this pistol, I am assured that any lack of accuracy is due to me and not the pistol. Is that enough to justify the time and expense? For me the answer is yes, even if I never get to the point of serious competition. Besides, I can now take great pride in owning such an accurate pistol.

There is more to this story, but I think it is enough fr now. In conclusion, I can highly recommend Jon Eulette's work and in doing so join many others that feel likewise.

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Post by Froneck 7/4/2023, 3:27 pm

Simply put if you know nothing about doing a trigger job especially for a BE pistol send it to someone that does! I have seen online videos on doing trigger jobs that are at best BAD! One problem is that most don't know what a good trigger job is, I can't begin to say how many have shown me their pistol after a great trigger job that I found to be very bad! Drop in trigger or trigger job may feel good simply because it is better than what it was before. One problem is sear and hammer pins. Some are smaller than needed. Also hole location is not the same from gun to gun plus may not be parallel. Before getting a trigger job you need to determine what type is best for you.Crisp or roll but there is different types of roll. Also the trigger style between most .22 pistols and 1911 is different. 1911 has straight pull while .22 has pivoting trigger not to mention the different required minimum pull weights. When selecting a gunsmith find someone that knows what he's doing with BE pistols, most don't have a clue!! The good ones have done BE guns for the top BE shooters!

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Post by Al W. 7/4/2023, 7:05 pm

Froneck wrote:Simply put if you know nothing about doing a trigger job especially for a BE pistol send it to someone that does! I have seen online videos on doing trigger jobs that are at best BAD! One problem is that most don't know what a good trigger job is, I can't begin to say how many have shown me their pistol after a great trigger job that I found to be very bad! Drop in trigger or trigger job may feel good simply because it is better than what it was before. One problem is sear and hammer pins. Some are smaller than needed. Also hole location is not the same from gun to gun plus may not be parallel. Before getting a trigger job you need to determine what type is best for you.Crisp or roll but there is different types of roll. Also the trigger style between most .22 pistols and 1911 is different. 1911 has straight pull while .22 has pivoting trigger not to mention the different required minimum pull weights. When selecting a gunsmith find someone that knows what he's doing with BE pistols, most don't have a clue!! The good ones have done BE guns for the top BE shooters!
Yes sir.
Be aware that I have no need to tinker with the pistol, I just want to learn about 1911 stuff.
As It happens I'm a tech, not a pistol smith or gun smith but I work in a shop environment and am capable of working to a high tolerance and standard.
That said, I have no plans to work on this thing my self.
I followed some of the leads from everone's comments though and reconsidered the pistol and took some measurements .
SA did a good job , the gun is running smoother after one match , actually. 
I put a caliper on the bushing and barrel and came away with a .001 variation between the parts.
Hard to see why that would require improvement. 
The action is a little grainy but that will improve with use.
The trigger break is pretty good , it reminds me of a Volquartsen trigger I have on a S&W Victory I own.
Thanks for everyone's input , I sincerely appreciate it.
Now I just need to run the gun.. Made up some 4.4gr BE under a 185gr JHP , I'll run off some 4.1 gr for a 185gr LSWC tomorrow and Thursday I'll
take them out to the range and see how I do.
50 yards is a challenge with iron sights !
Al W.
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Post by NuJudge 7/4/2023, 8:43 pm

There are things you can do for yourself to make an SA RO shoot better.  One is, you can send it to a gunsmith and ask them to do a quick trigger job and improve the front bushing.  Shooters in your area should be able to point you to one.  

You can also talk to EGW about bushings to fit your barrel OD and Slide ID.  Use a micrometer to measure your barrel OD, not a vernier caliper.  You need a precise measurement of the inside of your slide.  All the guidance I have seen says to use a vernier caliper to measure the ID also (I can not tell you how many times I was embarrassed by inaccurate vernier caliper readings in a prior life).  

There are lots of vendors that offer drop in trigger jobs, some even predicting the trigger pull weight you can expect.  The problem with all of them is that you will probably need to fit a new thumb safety after installing such.

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Post by Froneck 7/5/2023, 12:21 am

So to make everyone understand measuring tools the Micrometer is the most accurate, With a vernier they can measure to 1/10000th of and inch accurately. Vernier caliper is next such as the Starrett 123. Often seen on ebay is the Digital Vernier Caliper, there is no such device! It's either Digital or Vernier but Never both!!! Next accurate is the Digital Caliper. Followed by the Dial Caliper. Problem with the dial type is the gear will jump the rack and if not noticed will have errors.
  There is a Digital Micrometer but the Mechanical one is slightly more accurate! I don't say it but Starrett does in their Catalog.
 Al W I don't doubt your skill, ability nor the capacity to learn! However there is nothing to measure when doing a trigger job. It's the relationship between the hammer and sear. First you have to understand every time you stone a sear it gets shorter allowing the hammer to rotate more when that happens the angle of engagement changes. Most don't realize it but the disconnector does get involved, trigger too. When using a stone it must be flat, it will wear so how do you get it flat again? If you put gauge pins thru the sear and hammer holes and measure the distance between them on one side and find the distance is different on the other side, what do you do? I have never seen a book that is any good! Many rave about Kuhnhausen's book. As far as I'm concerned it's best kept in the outhouse in case the toilet paper runs out! He never worked on a 1911!! Simply a writer that wrote about guns! Also you will find that the top gunsmiths will not tell you what to do! Simply because they earn a living doing it! But if you become friends with one they will help you. Floyd Aikman, George Madore, Carl Mustoe and Joe Kassay tutored me because we were friends. You will be better off getting a good trigger job by a top BE smith and look at it thru magnifying glass or microscope. Get another hammer and sear and try doing it but when going to a match you have the other sear and hammer to use, might be better if you put the sear, hammer, disconnector and spring aside when trying to learn. Then put them back in for matches!

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Post by Al W. 7/6/2023, 6:14 pm

Thanks to all for the comments. 
Very informative.
Shot some of that 4.1 Gr under 185 LSWC today.
That round runs well at 25 yds.
Thanks again...
Al W.
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