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Sig P210 A Trigger Hitch Solution

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Merick
rinconmann
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Post by rinconmann 7/27/2023, 4:32 pm

I have a slight hitch just prior to my trigger break on my P210A standard. Yes of course I can send it to Sig but I do most of my own work and am very comfortable and love working on my own extensive pistol collection. Each pistol platform is fun to discover its form and function. Worst case of course it can go so Sig. I have read in detail the awesome write-up by member tovaert and really appreciate his efforts and extensive 2021 write-up. I'd PM him myself but don't have enough posts yet. Anyways the P210A I have owned it for about a year and bought used. I did polish the feet of the trigger take-up lever which actually smoothed out the take-up pull feel but not eliminated the issue of said hitch. Upon trigger pull and after the pre-travel stage sear catches (assume sear), and then 80% of the time stays there caught up like a 2-stage trigger, and then when I pull down the hammer further (with thumb after it's cocked) it releases the hung-up sear and gives an audible click. It is very slight but any bullseye shooter would notice it and it bugs me. It works like a 2 stage trigger set but that's not what I want. The P210A hammer/sear block assembly (lock housing) hides some of its function so it's not so obvious to me. Is this a flaw in design I have to live with or can sear adjustment or polishing the sear and hammer contact surfaces solve this? I'll tinker till solved but ANY direction ahead is really appreciated before I do a full take-down of the bloc assembly. The picture is of the hammer and sear in the hitched stuck position. Thanks

rinconmann

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Post by Merick 7/27/2023, 5:53 pm

The p210A does in fact have a 2 stage trigger.

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Post by rinconmann 7/27/2023, 6:38 pm

I feel the pre-travel as 1st stage but it is setting and sticking in the “set” stage after the hitch feel. When off the trigger it stays set once it “sticks”. Not always of course. Said “set”, when it sticks can be released by pulling hammer back when cocked. If intended to be a 2 stage “set” trigger shouldn’t it always stay set when finger is off trigger but “set”? This happens only 80-80% of time. Thanks

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Post by shootingsight 7/28/2023, 6:31 am

I'm no expert on pistol triggers, and have never disassembled my 210, but what I think you are describing is insufficient sear engagement on the 2nd stage.  All sears will round slightly at the tip.  In rifles I have measured tool steel sears as developing around a 0.001" radius rounding on the trigger and on the hammer.  This means that when you have 0.002" of sear engagement, these two radii come tangent with each other and the hammer sear begins to 'slip, or roll around the corner' of the trigger sear.  If you have less than 0.002" of sear engagement, it has several effects: the first is that the trigger pull will begin to go soft after you hit the second stage, the other is that if you pull up to the second stage, but do not take the shot, the hammer has to climb back 'uphill' around this corner, so you will feel the trigger stick slightly.  If this is what is going on, you want more second stage sear engagement, and also note that this is a dangerous condition, because if the hammer is sticking as I described, you might remove your finger from the trigger, yet still have the hammer just barely hanging on the sear edge, and a bump could set it off.

If my experience building rifle triggers is not applicable to pistols, I am more than happy to concede to people who know more than I do, but that is what I take away from your description.

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Post by rsp 7/28/2023, 2:19 pm

shootingsight's post sounds correct. The 2nd stage is so short on your gun that it kicks in right when the hammer is on the very tip of the sear nose and allows it to balance right on that edge, where it stays even after releasing the trigger. It's a very unsafe state for the gun to be left in!

It is NOT supposed to work that way. The hammer/sear should always return to full, safe engagement when the trigger is released. It should never hang on the transition between stages.

I have seen this exact thing happen on an original P49 -- on that gun, to fix the problem the 2nd stage must be increased permanently by stoning the "double pull lever" surfaces. Doesn't take much to fix it but it is a one-way street.

On the P210A it can be much more easily and reversibly adjusted. Pop out the hammer/sear unit and look for a tiny set screw on the BOTTOM of the unit. When you loosen that you'll be able to rotate the socket head "screw" on the RIGHT SIDE of the unit. This "screw" is not really a screw but an eccentric shaft that offsets the double-pull lever. It has a little tab sticking off it to indicate where it's been set. The whole adjustment range is only about a half-turn arc, so a little change goes a long way.

I forget which way is which, but basically turning that eccentric shaft enables you to change where in the trigger pull the extra spring resistance of the 2nd stage kicks in. You want to move that point so it happens slightly sooner in the trigger pull, not on the exact edge of the hammer being released.

You can play with cocking and (gently) releasing the hammer without having to reassemble the hammer/sear unit into the gun. You'll quickly understand how that eccentric shaft affects where in the sear's travel the double-pull lever gets involved and starts compressing against the mainspring creating the extra resistance for the 2nd stage.

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Post by rinconmann 7/28/2023, 4:02 pm

I tried to post a picture and video of the sticking sear in my original post but old dogs need to learn new tricks. I think I have to host it on my server which I can do. It seems odd when it sticks, makes a click sound and you can feel it and see it. The frame has a firing pin safety block but that has nothing to do with said issue as I can recreate the issue with the frame and even the hammer/sear block out of the frame. Member shootingsight seems right on the money as does rsp so in the rabbit hole I go (which of course I enjoy until I don't). I measure by a tuned trigger 1911 standards, don't mind the P210 pre-travel but hope to see this pistol trigger work as well as the gun looks and whose reputation is very high. Thanks to all of you guys for the replies.

rinconmann

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Post by rinconmann 7/29/2023, 1:07 am

98% there after doing the adjustment. Excellent help and very precise so thanks for that. The adjustment shortened the pre travel but lengthened the pull. Good news is that it no longer sticks and the only thing I feel ever so slightly is a slight let off just before breaking but it’s 98% better. Only feel it if I slow creep the pull, then half the time it’s so subtle the trigger breaks and hammer falls. Adjusting more and more almost took out the pre travel but did not eliminate that acceptable slight let off before the break issue. Suppose a bit of polishing sear and hammer surfaces would solve that but a little risky and since sooo much better I’m leaving it. Had to go from a 6 o’clock index on that adjustment screw to 2 pm so quite an adjustment. I can only assume the prior owner messed with it or the factory missed it but it’s quite nice now and actually more than acceptable. Not 1911 standard but close so many thanks for sharing knowledge you guys are great. Love that pistol now.

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Post by Brian Mason 7/30/2023, 6:01 pm

Not sure if the US pistols are similar, but Swiss Sig 210s have a bizarre pseudo-second stage caused by a part called the “druckpunkthebel” (druckpunkt is the German word for the second stage). Basically, when you pull the trigger on a 210 you’re moving sear surfaces on the sear and hammer hooks almost immediately, but in the middle of the trigger movement the sear pivots enough to touch two bumps on the druckpunkthebel under it, which in turn is resisted by the mainspring. As those two bumps wear down, that fake second stage gets closer and closer to the actual release point, and everything goes funky. Past that, you lose the second stage completely, the trigger weight drops way down (because the DPH isn’t being touched at all and thus doesn’t involve the mainspring), and your now super light trigger rolls like a double action revolver. It can happen quite quickly and can be very disconcerting.

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Post by Brian Mason 7/30/2023, 6:12 pm

rsp wrote:shootingsight's post sounds correct. The 2nd stage is so short on your gun that it kicks in right when the hammer is on the very tip of the sear nose and allows it to balance right on that edge, where it stays even after releasing the trigger. It's a very unsafe state for the gun to be left in!

It is NOT supposed to work that way. The hammer/sear should always return to full, safe engagement when the trigger is released. It should never hang on the transition between stages.

I have seen this exact thing happen on an original P49 -- on that gun, to fix the problem the 2nd stage must be increased permanently by stoning the "double pull lever" surfaces. Doesn't take much to fix it but it is a one-way street.

On the P210A it can be much more easily and reversibly adjusted. Pop out the hammer/sear unit and look for a tiny set screw on the BOTTOM of the unit. When you loosen that you'll be able to rotate the socket head "screw" on the RIGHT SIDE of the unit. This "screw" is not really a screw but an eccentric shaft that offsets the double-pull lever. It has a little tab sticking off it to indicate where it's been set. The whole adjustment range is only about a half-turn arc, so a little change goes a long way.

I forget which way is which, but basically turning that eccentric shaft enables you to change where in the trigger pull the extra spring resistance of the 2nd stage kicks in. You want to move that point so it happens slightly sooner in the trigger pull, not on the exact edge of the hammer being released.

You can play with cocking and (gently) releasing the hammer without having to reassemble the hammer/sear unit into the gun. You'll quickly understand how that eccentric shaft affects where in the sear's travel the double-pull lever gets involved and starts compressing against the mainspring creating the extra resistance for the 2nd stage.
Right, to correct you’d stone those two legs jutted out the back of the druckpunkthebel, to pivot those two little bumps in the middle upwards to reestablish contact with the bottom of the sear. Care must be taken to make sure contact is equal on both sides where those legs lock against the ignition housing itself. To do that, Swiss smiths wedge a piece of paper under the legs—resistance should feel equal when they tug the paper out.

I should also mention that an experienced Swiss 210 smith told me he never messes with the sear surfaces themselves, for whatever that’s worth.

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Post by shootingsight 7/30/2023, 9:33 pm

Would a Swiss 210 smith be a Zwo Zehn Schmidt?

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Post by rinconmann 7/31/2023, 12:35 am

Holy crap this is getting interesting. Entertaining! Probably the most interesting if not complicated pistol mechanism I’ve ever toyed with and at this point above my level as some guns you (me at least) really don’t want to potentially mess up; Pythons, Lugers, 1st gen SAAs, 210s come to mind. Seems a little hard to get replacement parts for that pistol. Plus you are pros at these things it appears from the posts. Still going to try the paper pull and not stone sear surface as mentioned. My problem I would say is solved but after reading that last post maybe there’s more perfection to be juiced and I can’t make it. Do y’all recommend at this point I bite the bullet, pay an FFL (live in CA) to send it to Sig and pay them to “be the best it can be? It’s my only 210 so I’ve nothing to compare it with as far as standards. Don’t know anyone else in CA with an American version either and Sig customer service just says send it in and doesn’t get detailed like you guys. Should I settle with my results? It shot tight groups even when it had that awful hitching sticking trigger before adjustment. Range gun and safe queen but I do like to have all my pistols triggers be the very best the systems can deliver. I’m a bid OCD on triggers and think about my pistols a lot. Like em perfect as the designer intended or I dwell. Please feel free to opine.

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Post by Brian Mason 8/1/2023, 1:00 pm

rinconmann wrote:Holy crap this is getting interesting. Entertaining! Probably the most interesting if not complicated pistol mechanism I’ve ever toyed with and at this point above my level as some guns you (me at least) really don’t want to potentially mess up; Pythons, Lugers, 1st gen SAAs, 210s come to mind. Seems a little hard to get replacement parts for that pistol. Plus you are pros at these things it appears from the posts. Still going to try the paper pull and not stone sear surface as mentioned. My problem I would say is solved but after reading that last post maybe there’s more perfection to be juiced and I can’t make it. Do y’all recommend at this point I bite the bullet, pay an FFL (live in CA) to send it to Sig and pay them to “be the best it can be? It’s my only 210 so I’ve nothing to compare it with as far as standards. Don’t know anyone else in CA with an American version either and Sig customer service just says send it in and doesn’t get detailed like you guys. Should I settle with my results? It shot tight groups even when it had that awful hitching sticking trigger before adjustment. Range gun and safe queen but I do like to have all my pistols triggers be the very best the systems can deliver. I’m a bid OCD on triggers and think about my pistols a lot. Like em perfect as the designer intended or I dwell. Please feel free to opine.
If it’s not a safety problem, I suspect Sig might not want to mess with it, but if you ask them I’d definitely be interested in what they say. Alternatively, you could check with Roland Croes at Roco to see if he works on US 210s. I also suspect there are more smiths knowledgeable about these now that there’s a US version.

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Post by rinconmann 8/18/2023, 12:37 pm

Thanks I’ll look into him as I’ve found factories are not as OCD about trigger perfection as they seem to feel they already made it perfect. I once called a certain maker of my gas operated .357 as a fun project to get better groups having put an RDS upon it and was scoffed at. I intend to start collecting the Swiss and German 210 versions so trying to learn AMAP. They’ll be safe queens and I won’t touch those investments but plan to shoot the A versions and wish they had a SRT or better trigger compared to a bullseye 1911. Maybe Roland can help? I’d be willing to buy parts from Sig that I can provide but as a collector that’s ruined old 1911s value to turn them into bullseye guns when younger I like to now keep internals stock, buy parts to mod then box the oem parts to maintain valuation. People glow about the P210 trigger but my P210A-B built in 2020 has a long 2nd stage. Not even sure Sig would sell me a replacement hammer, sear and druckpunkthebel to play around with anybody know?

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Post by tovaert 8/19/2023, 11:34 am

Midwest Gun Works sells a P210 Hammer however I'm not sure if it compatible with the US-made gun. I have never seen other fire control parts for sale. Sig (in NH) is very reluctant to sell replacement parts (preferring of course that you ship the gun to them if there are problems). The guide rod assembly is the exception.

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