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Iron sights

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xmastershooter
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Post by Jsgottschalk Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:07 pm

I seam to lose the front sight against the black on the target. I cant keep it in focus 
Any thoughts ?

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Post by shooter1450 Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:10 pm

Not a problem if you use 6 o’clock hold.
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Post by Jsgottschalk Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:13 pm

I've tried that. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around aiming at one thing and hitting another

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Post by toddcfii Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:19 pm

Smoking your front sight helps. It creates a very matte black sight against a relatively shiny target.
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Post by John Dervis Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:25 pm

I have been struggling a little with that lately too.  I do use a 6 O'Clock hold but for me the rear sight is sharper than the front.  I can see the serrations on the rear blade but the front didn't have any detail.  I have prescription lenses for the front sight but I thought maybe my eye had changed.  I tested this theory by using a card with small print and attached that to my front sight.  With my glasses, that print was sharp as can be so that is not the problem.  I researched some remedies and found an old one where you simply mark the front sight with something.  I used some dull yellow nail polish to test this out and it does in fact give you something to fixate on vs a black post.  I am only a few weeks into this but so far I think it might help. 

John

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Post by Jsgottschalk Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:31 pm

Maybe some white out on front and rear ?
The contrast would be good ?
I have been considering that 🤔

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Post by james r chapman Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:01 pm

Smoking sights. White will disappear in the sun
Zins says put a scratch on the front sight to focus on.


Last edited by james r chapman on Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Wobbley Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:02 pm

Brian Zins would use his pocket knife to scribe a vertical streak on his front sight.  If he couldn’t see the streak he would adjust his focus.  I did something similar with a regular pencil when it shot service rifle.  I put a small dot on the sight below the top of the blade.  If I couldn’t see the dot, I adjusted my focus.
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Post by Jsgottschalk Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:07 pm

Interesting

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Post by Cmysix Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:33 pm

toddcfii wrote:Smoking your front sight helps. It creates a very matte black sight against a relatively shiny target.
aren't they hard to light?
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Post by toddcfii Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:46 pm

Cmysix wrote:
toddcfii wrote:Smoking your front sight helps. It creates a very matte black sight against a relatively shiny target.
aren't they hard to light?
No. There are different options. I have one that is basically a lighter with the rocks and some water in it. Works real well. Some people use a miner’s lamp. Some use a big lighter. Some use a black paint.
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Post by james r chapman Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:51 pm

Over the head humor here! Lol
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Post by Sa-tevp Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:15 pm

Setting a strip of masking tape on fire makes good soot too. Plus most people have some for that one shot or so not on the repair center.  Cool
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Post by bruce martindale Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:21 pm

I'm a sub-6 guy. If sights are aligned, l can drift up down left and right by several inches on a 50 yard target and still hit a ten

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Post by chiz1180 Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:28 pm

I have found if I am loosing focus on the front sight, usually, my focus is not really on the front sight, rather attempting to focus on both the target and the front sight.
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Post by John Dervis Sat Jul 29, 2023 8:00 pm

Jsgottschalk wrote:Maybe some white out on front and rear ?
The contrast would be good ?
I have been considering that 🤔

It's not really the contrast but rather it gives you a point to look at so it is just the front sight that gets the mark.  During this process I was reading messages on this board along with some links that were posted so I am not 100% sure where I heard / read the following but this is why it makes sense.  Sorry I can't give the proper credit to the person that put it in these words but perhaps they will chime in.

We often here the phrase "Focus on the Front Sight" but what we need to do is "Fixate on the Front Sight"  What that means is that Focus is a physical dynamic of our eye seeing the Front sight clearly (I proved to myself that my eye sight wasn't the issue because I could see the small print just fine).  So I decided to try the mark on the front sight to give me something to truly "Fixate" on.  I am in a learning curve right now with this but so far I can see the merit of using it.

As to blackening the sights - I have done that my whole life and it has worked to sharpen the sight picture.  It is possible my eyes are not sharp enough now for this technique to work even though I can physically focus on the front sight (with my glasses).  It has been a struggle for me this year to "see" that front sight like I need to.  Obviously I can not blacken the front sight and still see my paint but I may be able to blacken it and then mark it with a scratch to get the same affect.  If I train myself to Fixate on that front sight mark, I would suppose any mark will work.

EDIT - I remember where this came from although I have heard the marking technique since I was a little kid.  It just didn't make the sense to me until now.  In another thread on this board someone posted a training video created by a Navy Seal.  It was in that video that he explained Focus vs Fixation.

Good Luck.

John

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Post by only_8_ring Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:35 pm

6 o'clock hold is what I use. It also helps me let go and accept my wobble, since I can't quite tell how big the wobble is because I'm not focusing my eyes at the black.

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Post by john bickar Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:18 pm

Cmysix wrote:
toddcfii wrote:Smoking your front sight helps. It creates a very matte black sight against a relatively shiny target.
aren't they hard to light?

Gotta puff on it a bit to get a good draw Laughing
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Post by john bickar Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:21 pm

Erich Buljung used to say, "You can ignore a scratch on the front sight just as much as you're already ignoring watching the front sight."

I'm not one to argue with Zins's advice; there is, however, a kernel of truth in Erich's words.

Ben Amonette talks about "critical vision." Let me see if I can find the post.
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Post by john bickar Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:26 pm

I can't find the original post, but I copied it to my internal notes because it resonated with me. Credit to Ben Amonette.

"I think the ability to call shots is a key factor in what makes some shooters better than others.  It takes critical vision, the ability to see the slightest imperfections in sight alignment, to effectively call shots.  Some shooters no doubt have good holds, but lack critical vision.  They are good scope shooters but not reliably so with open sights.  Then the opposite occurs too, good vision but so so hold. The shooters that excel have both the hold and critical vision...and the mental determination to bring everything together."

"You are correct in that AP uncovers all flaws and errors.  AP requires supreme sight alignment and trigger control, as does FP.  However, I am tempted to say that critical vision is something you either have or do not have.  I am not sure it is something you can develop.  I do believe it is something that you can have and refine with training.  I know and have known some excellent bullseye shooters (with scopes) over the years that do lots of training, but they never reach the same level of accomplishment in international pistol.  I believe this is due to having good holds and effective training, but they simply lack the critical vision needed for success with open sights."
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Post by shootingsight Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:25 am

Wow, amazed that after all the discussions, this issue is not resolved.

An adjusted eye will focus at infinity with a relaxed eye muscle.  Achieving a balance between target and sight focus (which is a preference question) requires either exertion of the eye muscle or the addition of a positive lens addition.  Data suggest very young shooters prefer +0.50 to +0.75 boost, older shooters prefer +0.75 to +1.00 boost. Since lenses come in 0.25 increments, this means that you want to add a positive diopter lens of 0.50 to 1.00 boost, and your age will likely determine how much.

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Post by john bickar Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:51 am

Further reading (note that I was significantly younger and shooting strictly iron sights when Doc Wong did this survey): https://starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongmain/ironsightsurvey.html

Interestingly, at my age, I currently use the same prescription for iron sights as I do for the dot (and for driving), which is a minus diopter, as I’m mildly nearsighted.

TL;DR: Go see an eye doctor.
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Post by xmastershooter Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:32 am

John Dervis wrote:
Jsgottschalk wrote:Maybe some white out on front and rear ?
The contrast would be good ?
I have been considering that 🤔

It's not really the contrast but rather it gives you a point to look at so it is just the front sight that gets the mark.  During this process I was reading messages on this board along with some links that were posted so I am not 100% sure where I heard / read the following but this is why it makes sense.  Sorry I can't give the proper credit to the person that put it in these words but perhaps they will chime in.

We often here the phrase "Focus on the Front Sight" but what we need to do is "Fixate on the Front Sight"  What that means is that Focus is a physical dynamic of our eye seeing the Front sight clearly (I proved to myself that my eye sight wasn't the issue because I could see the small print just fine).  So I decided to try the mark on the front sight to give me something to truly "Fixate" on.  I am in a learning curve right now with this but so far I can see the merit of using it.

As to blackening the sights - I have done that my whole life and it has worked to sharpen the sight picture.  It is possible my eyes are not sharp enough now for this technique to work even though I can physically focus on the front sight (with my glasses).  It has been a struggle for me this year to "see" that front sight like I need to.  Obviously I can not blacken the front sight and still see my paint but I may be able to blacken it and then mark it with a scratch to get the same affect.  If I train myself to Fixate on that front sight mark, I would suppose any mark will work.

EDIT - I remember where this came from although I have heard the marking technique since I was a little kid.  It just didn't make the sense to me until now.  In another thread on this board someone posted a training video created by a Navy Seal.  It was in that video that he explained Focus vs Fixation.

Good Luck.

John

Hi John,

Please note this thread on Front Sight Focus under General Discussion starting January 30,2023.  We discussed focus and fixation.  The Navy Seal video never spoke of fixation. The following link at the bottom will direct you to an article on fixation in Shooting Sports USA. Our shots will break before sight fading manifests but shooters should be aware.

..................
[My original article on shooting and vision may be seen in Ed Hall's postings on shooting.  The shooting add best for me at the time of my 2008 article was +0.75 D add.  I recommended trying +0.50, +0.75 and +1.00D as a start.  As the years went by, +0.75D add no longer worked for me.  Seeing the front sight blurred along with the bulllseye blurred did not work for me at all.  I do pride myself as a good listener especially when top shooters such as Brian Zins and Bill Blankenship speak... "Front Sight Focus!"

The human eye is not as rigid as we think.  From experience, I no longer took into consideration the shooter's age, length of arm and pupil size during my bullseye exams.  Charts and diagrams are not truly reflective on how we see all the time.  For example, a teenager may have 15 diopters of accommodation and may struggle to maintain front sight focus.  A 65 year old senior may still be able to accommodate 0.75 diopters.  When I learned that prominent shooters who are national record holders and Camp Perry champions used the outer limits of suggested power add ranges, this was an eye opener for me.  The shooter almost 60 years old used a +0.25 add while the shooter in his 30's used a +1.50 add.

I think for most, start with the best lens for front sight focus.  If there is a problem with too much target blur, then back down in 0.25D steps.  Two important factors should be considered, focus and fixation, which are two different things.  Focus is the finest clarity possible with the proper lens.  Fixation is directing your fovea onto the front sight.  The fovea is the center of the macula in the retina where our images are directed, our line of sight.  As long as the fixation is firm onto the front sight, a good shot can still be achieved.  Fixation is just as important as focus.

Norman Wong, O.D.]


https://www.ssusa.org/content/troxler-effect-and-instability-of-our-sight-picture/


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Post by TonyH Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:14 am

Jsgottschalk wrote:I seam to lose the front sight against the black on the target. I cant keep it in focus 
Any thoughts?
Jeff,
Have you tried a sub-six hold yet? It takes a while to get used to it and get consistent results but what doesn't in this sport? Stickwithitness will often pay dividends.
Take a gander at this article: http://toyfj40.freeshell.org/GunPix/NygordNotes/BullsEye.html with focus on how the author describes the sub-six hold. You can try and control the width of the "line of white" by using ratios. e.g.. if the amount light (white) you see on either side of the front sight is a 1, and you maintain the same amount of light (white) between the top of the front sight and the bottom of the black, then I'll describe the ratio as 1:1:1. If you double the "line of white" width then the ratio is 1:2:1 etc., suit to your eyes and preference.
In practicality, it's not an exact distance, of course, due to one's wobble, but doesn't really matter much as long as your sights are aligned. In other words, you can make parallel sight alignment errors all day long (and I do) without losing as many points as when you make angular errors (and I do Very Happy ) in sight alignment. It's a lot easier, for me, to keep sights aligned on a light colored background than on a black one.  
As far as "I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around aiming at one thing and hitting another".....think of it this way.......the target is nothing much more than a bullet hole recording device and as such, has absolutely nothing to do with shot execution. Shot execution happens at your end. As long as you get a clean shot break, in your area of wobble (think sub-six, black sights against a light background) and your sub-six zero get the shots in in the middle of the black, who cares?
Try it (for a while), you may like it.......or not.Laughing


Last edited by TonyH on Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Jsgottschalk Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:16 am

Thanks Tony

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