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Iron sights

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xmastershooter
shootingsight
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Post by Jsgottschalk Sat 29 Jul 2023, 5:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

I seam to lose the front sight against the black on the target. I cant keep it in focus 
Any thoughts ?

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Post by Cmysix Sun 30 Jul 2023, 10:42 am

only_8_ring wrote:6 o'clock hold is what I use. It also helps me let go and accept my wobble, since I can't quite tell how big the wobble is because I'm not focusing my eyes at the black.


As Far as your WOBBLE goes try this , My father a BE shooter of some note in his day would do all his dry fire practice with his 45 with a magazine filled with lead, I now have that. OR weigh your gun what 2 pounds? give or take? find some thing you can hold in your hand that weighs more and when your just sitting around hold it up and out from your body for as long as you can and keep doing it, stop two days before a match or practice and see what that does for your wobble.
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Post by chiz1180 Sun 30 Jul 2023, 12:47 pm

john bickar wrote:TL;DR: Go see an eye doctor.
this is probably the best advice that most people will over look.
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Post by only_8_ring Sun 30 Jul 2023, 1:07 pm

john bickar wrote:I can't find the original post, but I copied it to my internal notes because it resonated with me. Credit to Ben Amonette.

"I think the ability to call shots is a key factor in what makes some shooters better than others.  It takes critical vision, the ability to see the slightest imperfections in sight alignment, to effectively call shots.  Some shooters no doubt have good holds, but lack critical vision.  They are good scope shooters but not reliably so with open sights.  Then the opposite occurs too, good vision but so so hold. The shooters that excel have both the hold and critical vision...and the mental determination to bring everything together."

"You are correct in that AP uncovers all flaws and errors.  AP requires supreme sight alignment and trigger control, as does FP.  However, I am tempted to say that critical vision is something you either have or do not have.  I am not sure it is something you can develop.  I do believe it is something that you can have and refine with training.  I know and have known some excellent bullseye shooters (with scopes) over the years that do lots of training, but they never reach the same level of accomplishment in international pistol.  I believe this is due to having good holds and effective training, but they simply lack the critical vision needed for success with open sights."

+1 to that. Thanks for taking the time to find the post, John.

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Post by xmastershooter Sun 30 Jul 2023, 11:23 pm

john bickar wrote:Further reading (note that I was significantly younger and shooting strictly iron sights when Doc Wong did this survey): https://starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongmain/ironsightsurvey.html

Interestingly, at my age, I currently use the same prescription for iron sights as I do for the dot (and for driving), which is a minus diopter, as I’m mildly nearsighted.

TL;DR: Go see an eye doctor.

The significance of this survey was to show our fellow shooters what prominent shooters use. Again, not one lens power was the norm.  I commend shooters who continue to experiment throughout their shooting careers.  John Bickar went from one extreme lens power to the other and has done remarkably well.  Note that John is using Jim Lenardson's prefer vision setup.  See Jim's survey response.  Presbyope shooters may rely on fixation along with focus to obtain impeccable trigger control.

Norman

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Post by mbmshooter Mon 31 Jul 2023, 12:21 pm

TonyH wrote:
Jsgottschalk wrote:I seam to lose the front sight against the black on the target. I cant keep it in focus 
Any thoughts?
Jeff,
Have you tried a sub-six hold yet? It takes a while to get used to it and get consistent results but what doesn't in this sport? Stickwithitness will often pay dividends.
Take a gander at this article: http://toyfj40.freeshell.org/GunPix/NygordNotes/BullsEye.html with focus on how the author describes the sub-six hold. You can try and control the width of the "line of white" by using ratios. e.g.. if the amount light (white) you see on either side of the front sight is a 1, and you maintain the same amount of light (white) between the top of the front sight and the bottom of the black, then I'll describe the ratio as 1:1:1. If you double the "line of white" width then the ratio is 1:2:1 etc., suit to your eyes and preference.
In practicality, it's not an exact distance, of course, due to one's wobble, but doesn't really matter much as long as your sights are aligned. In other words, you can make parallel sight alignment errors all day long (and I do) without losing as many points as when you make angular errors (and I do Very Happy ) in sight alignment. It's a lot easier, for me, to keep sights aligned on a light colored background than on a black one.  
As far as "I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around aiming at one thing and hitting another".....think of it this way.......the target is nothing much more than a bullet hole recording device and as such, has absolutely nothing to do with shot execution. Shot execution happens at your end. As long as you get a clean shot break, in your area of wobble (think sub-six, black sights against a light background) and your sub-six zero get the shots in in the middle of the black, who cares?
Try it (for a while), you may like it.......or not.Laughing

I also was taught to use the six o'clock hold many years ago when I began shooting .22 rifle.  It was natural for me to use it when I began shooting pistol. Interestingly, A good friend of mine used a DEEP six hold where he aims in the white half way between the bottom of the black and the bottom of the target.  The "area hold" as I like to call it enables him to concentrate on sight alignment and trigger control WITHOUT the distraction of that pesky x-ring.

It works for him (he has WON the Presidents 100 and WON the National Trophy Individual Championships).  This may not work for you but it is something you might consider; the POI does not have to be the same as the POA.

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Post by Jsgottschalk Mon 31 Jul 2023, 1:41 pm

Good point

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Post by Jon Eulette Mon 31 Jul 2023, 2:14 pm

Jeff,

Here's my simplified thoughts on iron sight shooting. First off, I was taught 6 o'clock and have always preferred over center hold or sub 6. Center hold even when younger I don't think my eyes were good enough to clearly define the front sight and stay on the front sight (but I could shoot Int CF Duel center hold no problems). Sub 6 I severely vertical strung my groups. So 6 o'clock for me!!!

When we break down the fundamentals we have sight alignment (no target) and sight picture (includes the target). I spend 80-85% of my time dry firing on a blank wall. So I can easliy keep my front sight in focus with no distraction of a target. Target will show your movement, white wall does not. Target will cause your eye to try and focus on it because of sight picture; most people do not struggle with the rear sight, they struggle with eye going back and forth from front sight to target.

So I believe by dry firing mostly on the blank wall I will perfect my sight alignment skills and train my brain to focus on the front sight more naturally.

Bullseye targets (B-8 and B-16) have a 3.36" diameter 10 ring. So for sake of conversation assume your pistol will shoot exactly on call with perfect grouping; pin point accuracy. We have area aiming also known as accepting our hold. You basically shoot your hold if your trigger pull and other fundamentals are correct. If you crowd the black when aiming and slip up slightly into the black, you will shoot a high 10. If you are slightly low (more white between front sight and target) you will shoot a low 10. Simple as that.

Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Read that 100x. If you hold too long you will go beyond the optimum time for your eye to remain focused on the front sight. Result is typically a low bad shot when your eye is looking at the target instead of the front sight. Many think they jerked the trigger when in reality they were looking at the target; When looking at the target you have NO sight alignment.

Dry firing is not done enough or properly by most shooters below master classification. But when performed correctly makes shooting so much easier to do well. For those that mostly shoot and don't dry fire they will not see many indicators of an error because recoil can/will mask them. In dry firing you can see the front sight slightly drop or raise or shift to the side, etc. You make corrections until it no longer does those things and remains stable throughout the shot process. Dry fire at the range working on something; grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze. Then load a round and shoot doing the exact same thing. Dry fire again. Shoot a shot again. Build the skill. It's not as fun as just standing there blasting away, but it is the only way to improve beyond natural skills. Dry fire teaches and live fire reinforces.

Hope this helps.

Jon
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Post by Jsgottschalk Mon 31 Jul 2023, 5:38 pm

Jon. That was HUGE. thank you
That was a great description

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Post by RodJ Tue 01 Aug 2023, 8:18 pm

Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG.
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Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG.

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Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG.

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Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG. Most shooters HOLD TOO LONG.

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