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Drop the Stop?

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Post by bruce martindale 8/15/2023, 3:07 pm

Trigger stops are interesting. They can either help prevent the tgr from accelerating after the sear has released ( which can introduce a flip, twitch or TIM). Or, they can also be a hard stop to any trigger movement and that too can also introduce a flip etc.

In the past, I have put up 880s with no stop on my Hammerli 208 22 and good Air Pistol scores too. Not so sure about the 1911

Without a stop set, I have had success where there is an appropriate amount of spring force left after the sear has released; think a double action revolver. I have just converted two 45 guns to both short triggers and no stop. It feels good and seems to stay pointed after the sear release. 

May also relate to how aggressive you are on the trigger. I’m going to make a guess that stops are most beneficial to highly advanced shooters and more of a hindrance to the novice.

Thoughts?

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Post by Jon Eulette 8/15/2023, 3:50 pm

When I was younger, in my mid 20's I had my over travel set up real tight. I was shooting 890's with all my pistols in those years. Now as an older guy I prefer to have more over travel after breaking the shot. I like it mostly for dry firing. I don't notice it in live fire. I like it in dry fire because I practice several types of trigger pulling methods when training and do not want the stop to be in the mix. So after shooting both ways I think it doesn't matter. If you pull the trigger with a hard felt stop afterwards you're pulling it too fast. Triggers are to be finessed, that's where most fail, they have no finesse. Trigger finger is the culprit to bad shots 90+% of the time.
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Post by Froneck 8/15/2023, 6:35 pm

I adjust my trigger stop with weights! In doing triggers on my 1911 I use a weight set with 1oz weights. Rather than stack a number of  weights I have a weight that will give me the 3.5lbs required. That is for legal weight, but means nothing to the shooter except keep him from being disqualified. I then use the 1oz weights to determine actual hammer release pressure and it must repeat +/- 1oz. To adjust the stop I add 2oz to the + release weight and with stop set so hammer is not released carefully loosen the stop screw until hammer falls. 1/4lb weight is 4 oz so it can be modified to get 1, 2 and 3oz weights. Being they are not used for legal weight limit, accuracy is not very important as long as they are dam near the weight needed.

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Post by Allgoodhits 8/15/2023, 7:55 pm

Many revolver shooters in categories which permit external modifications install over travel screws on their triggers. These most typically are a threaded allen head set screw with a rubber tip. The rubber tip hits the inside of the rear of the trigger guard. The rubber can simply act as a sift stop after the hammer is released, or it can be adjusted so one may pull trigger to rear and it reaches an actual stopping point when the rubber first makes contact with the trigger guard, then one can maintain pressure for final hammer fall. Some refer to this as staging a double action press or pull.

I have taken the same trigger overtravel screw as sold though Brownell's and installed them in my 1911 triggers. You have to re-tap the threads in the 1911 trigger as the rubber tip screw is slightly larger diameter from what is typical in 1911 triggers. This approach does not give me a hard stop like the typical overtravel screw, instead I refer to it as a soft landing. Temperature extremes have an impact on the rubber, so one has to be aware of that, but worse case the press takes a few ounces more if rubber is hard. Solvents and oil may have the opposite feel on the stop. I like it, it prevents overtravel with a soft landing so to speak.
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Post by john bickar 8/15/2023, 8:48 pm

I have never thought about the trigger stop or overtravel on any of the guns I've ever shot. I guess they must have been set up well, IDK.
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Post by Jon Eulette 8/15/2023, 8:58 pm

john bickar wrote:I have never thought about the trigger stop or overtravel on any of the guns I've ever shot. I guess they must have been set up well, IDK.
Check your momma’s ball gun and duplicate it Wink
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Post by chiz1180 8/15/2023, 9:20 pm

john bickar wrote:I have never thought about the trigger stop or overtravel on any of the guns I've ever shot. I guess they must have been set up well, IDK.
So are you implying that shot process is more important than small variables in equipment? 

I recall a story being told by a very well accomplished shooter's first trip to Perry, abbreviated here. Everyone there was talking about how the guy on such an such armory trailer did the best trigger jobs. Said shooter walked up to the guy asked for some trigger work, the guy picks up the gun looks at it hands it back and tells him to break 26xx and come back and talk to him. 

Moral of the story if your shot process is solid small variables in trigger don't matter. Excellent equipment is nice, but good equipment will still get the job done. Most people that show up to matches have equipment is more than adequate to shoot scores shoot high level scores, don't look for excuses for poor execution of shot process.
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Post by Jon Eulette 8/15/2023, 9:27 pm

99.9% of Military Armorers never get past Expert. I wouldn’t take shooting advice or trigger pulling advice from 99.9% of them.
Crap trigger equals crap scores. Take one of your own guns and drop an old hammer and sear in it. See how close you come to shooting the same scores as your “pet” trigger job? Probably not very close. I’m redoing a trigger for a 2670 shooter right now. It’s minutely off. It matters!
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Post by Froneck 8/15/2023, 11:19 pm

Most of the Guys on the AMU team liked roll trigger including Adam. But the armorers couldn't repeat the roll when it started to change. Being they shot everyday it didn't take long to wear out a roll trigger. Then when it came time to go to a match the new trigger job was different and they didn't have time to train with it so they switched to crisp! That the armorers could repeat.
 Adam said he would rather shoot a gun with a 2" group and great trigger than a 1" gun with a lousy trigger.

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Post by john bickar 8/15/2023, 11:41 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
john bickar wrote:I have never thought about the trigger stop or overtravel on any of the guns I've ever shot. I guess they must have been set up well, IDK.
Check your momma’s ball gun and duplicate it Wink

Why you talkin' 'bout my momma!

Yeah, I guess I did put that out there for all to use. Have at it Laughing

That is a gun that puts up some big numbers, though. If I could replicate it and sell it in a jar, I would be a billionaire.


Last edited by john bickar on 8/15/2023, 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by 1911a145 8/15/2023, 11:43 pm

Wasn’t the gun, but the chin strap hat.

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Post by Jon Eulette 8/15/2023, 11:50 pm

It was meant as a compliment Noble P100 Champion:)
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Post by john bickar 8/15/2023, 11:53 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:It was meant as a compliment Noble P100 Champion:)

It was taken as intended. Throwing shade back at you, as you deserve Laughing . I've known you too long to take offense to anything you throw at me.


Last edited by john bickar on 8/15/2023, 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by john bickar 8/15/2023, 11:53 pm

1911a145 wrote:Wasn’t the gun, but the chin strap hat.

You, on the other hand...
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Post by john bickar 8/16/2023, 12:10 am

chiz1180 wrote:
john bickar wrote:I have never thought about the trigger stop or overtravel on any of the guns I've ever shot. I guess they must have been set up well, IDK.
So are you implying that shot process is more important than small variables in equipment? 

I recall a story being told by a very well accomplished shooter's first trip to Perry, abbreviated here. Everyone there was talking about how the guy on such an such armory trailer did the best trigger jobs. Said shooter walked up to the guy asked for some trigger work, the guy picks up the gun looks at it hands it back and tells him to break 26xx and come back and talk to him. 

Moral of the story if your shot process is solid small variables in trigger don't matter. Excellent equipment is nice, but good equipment will still get the job done. Most people that show up to matches have equipment is more than adequate to shoot scores shoot high level scores, don't look for excuses for poor execution of shot process.

Thank you, Chris. I've done a damn good job of derailing this thread by flinging poo at a couple of my friends, so let me try to get it back on track, and actually add some value.

I did state that I've never been aware of the trigger stop, but my opinion is not the definitive one. My opinion is bullsh*t when it comes to other people's shooting.

Ask yourself:

What do you feel?

What works well?

What doesn't work well?

Are you keeping track of these things in your journal?
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Post by SteveT 8/16/2023, 9:01 am

The engineer in me thinks the trigger stop / over travel screw should either be set to the absolute minimum or run all the way out. When the hammer is released and you still have weight on the trigger, it starts to accelerate and pick up momentum. Minimal over travel means the trigger can't pick up much speed so the impact when it hits the stop is negligible. Running the screw all the way out allows the bullet to exit the barrel before the trigger hits the stop (hopefully).

The shooter in me doesn't think about it. Maybe I should check it on my guns. I think I have them run all the way out, but it's been years since touched the screws.
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Post by Froneck 8/16/2023, 9:44 am

Unless there is a hell lot of over travel I doubt the bullet will exit the barrel before the screw hits the stop. The hammer must reach the firing pin, then the pin ignite the primer so all that is after the sear comes off the hammer. The time to travel to when ever the trigger stops either by the stop screw or the end of it's travel if there is no stop screw will happen before the bullet will exit the barrel in my opinion simply because the hammer has to travel more than the trigger after the sear leaves the hammer hooks. I would also think that a roll trigger will be less likely to have an issue than crisp trigger.

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Post by shoot308 8/16/2023, 11:26 am

As an upcoming pistol shooter this thread gave me some thought, especially John Eulette's post. As a High Master Rifle shooter I have learned this pistol game is everything about the trigger. Thought I had good control until picking up a pistol. I can keep 7-8 shots all in the black on 50yd target but get those dreaded 2-3 in the white. I believe it comes from trying to snatch a 10 or faster on trigger. I grabbed my wad gun and turned over travel out so I wouldn't the stop so hard when I pulled faster. Dry firing it seemed to help a lot. Will shoot it at league tonight and see how it goes. I think the 2600 shooters don't notice so much as they have developed great control but as a new shooter I believe this will help me.

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Post by Froneck 8/16/2023, 11:46 am

I know quite a bit of 2650+ shooters that have the stop set for minimum over travel, my son Adam is one of them!. I use the weights to put pressure on the trigger rather than my finger. After the hammer falls and knowing the pitch of the screw (if it is 40tpi then the screw will travel .025"/turn so 1/4 turn of the screw is about .006") I then back the screw off 1/4 turn. The stop screw is not to adjust the sear to the half-cock hooks!!! That's a lousy trigger job! That's also is the method described in drop in triggers. But if after the adjustment is made check to see if the sear hits the half-cock hook, you should increase the back off until the sear clears the half-cock hook until you can get a knowledgeable smith to do a good trigger job.

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Post by Willfish30 8/18/2023, 7:37 pm

Hi Bruce, any feedback after backing out the trigger stops on your .45's? Dry fire and live fire?

Will

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Post by bruce martindale 8/18/2023, 8:06 pm

I ran it today under match conditions...note that I made 2 changes, notably a short trigger with no stop. In limited TF runs, l had solid Xs but also3 shots low left. Same in SF ( l even threw a 5 @50yds)

This was the first time I tried it and perhaps shouldn't have, but like in the Dirty Harry movie "I gotta know!"

I like the feel but I don't know if it's better yet

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Post by Jack H 8/18/2023, 8:54 pm

Over 50 years of HighStandard shooting I never saw any difference with stop or no stop HS.  My coach taught me some trigger work so the triggers were always excellent.  I do my own HS triggerwork now.
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Post by bruce martindale 8/21/2023, 7:04 pm

A nice bi model 45 string and a good bunch of 22s from the same frame with no stop and a short trigger shoe. Proper grip required. I like this!Drop the Stop? Img_2017

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Post by Froneck 8/22/2023, 10:08 am

I can't see how allowing the trigger to travel with out any stop will help group size. One way if the stop is not adjusted properly and is too short so that when trigger movement requires a little extra travel to release the hammer the stop increases the weigh of release. I'm sure that the stop will depend on the pull type. I had a top shooter (Perry winner) show me his trigger, the weight of pull was higher after the hammer was released. I know how that is accomplished but don't use it. That type trigger the stop will not help but will not hurt either. On triggers that most of the 3.5lbs is used during the take-up so that little weigh remains just before the hammer is released is another that the stop will not improve the group size since there is very little weight change when the hammer is released. Group size meaning better results when shooting the pistol with one hand as is done in a match. The stop will help the most when a trigger has a large weight change at the time the hammer is released and a lot of over travel. The sudden weight change will case the finger to rapidly move to the rear and especially in new shooters cause the had to move.

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Post by bruce martindale 8/22/2023, 10:34 am

Agreed, I feel little or no weight change after release, and no acceleration, no flip or TIM as said in initial post. I also suspect it matters if you're an SS or HM. One gets more benefits provided they have better control tho start with

Thanks

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