45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
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45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
First topic message reminder :
Hello,
Next year, I'm planning on shooting 45ACP 230 gr ball ammo in CMP EIC matches. I'm well aware that this is not necessary. Additionally, I'm not interested in the "I did this (leg out) when it was harder," discussion, as that is not fruitful.
What I *am* interested in, is the current consensus/fact/opinion on two things:
1) What really counts as "ball ammo" velocity that would have been issued on the line?
2) What sort of velocity is necessary for accuracy at 50 yards?
I've read this thread with data provided by Jack H: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1396-hardball-loads#6974
I've also caught basically the same information/post, though with a little more information/context from the link http://barilin.com/advice/hardball.html using the Wayback machine. I've researched other threads here that may have insight (but sadly cannot find a single test target to look at), but have mostly found discordant views.
It does seem clear that velocity has increased in commercially made 45ACP ball ammo from original introduction of the cartridge (though perhaps that is an artifact of improved chronographs). It also seems to be the case that some of the last stuff issued on the line, TZZ (or IMI, if you prefer) was known to be particularly hot. Of course, lot to lot variance can tell some of the story on perception of how hot some ammo was. So, too, can velocity measurements, as Jack H was kind enough to share, and Julian Hatcher was nice enough to write down (he said 820 fps).
So, let's hear it- what do you know about 45ACP ball ammo velocity that you'd like to share? I'm listening.
Thanks,
Chase
Hello,
Next year, I'm planning on shooting 45ACP 230 gr ball ammo in CMP EIC matches. I'm well aware that this is not necessary. Additionally, I'm not interested in the "I did this (leg out) when it was harder," discussion, as that is not fruitful.
What I *am* interested in, is the current consensus/fact/opinion on two things:
1) What really counts as "ball ammo" velocity that would have been issued on the line?
2) What sort of velocity is necessary for accuracy at 50 yards?
I've read this thread with data provided by Jack H: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1396-hardball-loads#6974
I've also caught basically the same information/post, though with a little more information/context from the link http://barilin.com/advice/hardball.html using the Wayback machine. I've researched other threads here that may have insight (but sadly cannot find a single test target to look at), but have mostly found discordant views.
It does seem clear that velocity has increased in commercially made 45ACP ball ammo from original introduction of the cartridge (though perhaps that is an artifact of improved chronographs). It also seems to be the case that some of the last stuff issued on the line, TZZ (or IMI, if you prefer) was known to be particularly hot. Of course, lot to lot variance can tell some of the story on perception of how hot some ammo was. So, too, can velocity measurements, as Jack H was kind enough to share, and Julian Hatcher was nice enough to write down (he said 820 fps).
So, let's hear it- what do you know about 45ACP ball ammo velocity that you'd like to share? I'm listening.
Thanks,
Chase
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
My bone density scan said I’m in the 98-99th percentile with very dense bones. But I have zero interest in pulling the trigger on 5 grains of old or new BE underneath a 230 grain projectile, regardless of jacket. OUCH!!
RodJ- Posts : 941
Join date : 2021-06-26
Location : TX
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Wobbley wrote:CAUTION,!! This is for HERCULES powders only…. It dates from 1987 when Hercules still had the Kenvil NJ plant. By 1994 they were making powders in another facility and the formulations were different, and they were now “Alliant”. So if you’re loading “HERCULES” powder you can use this data as a guide
There are two loads for a 230 RN…
4.0 BE behind a 230 RN Lead bullet giving 810fps, and
5.0 BE behind a 230 FMJ giving 910 fps.
If you’re loading FMJ I think you’ll find that 4.3-4.5 will be close to ideal, but as always YMMV. If I recall, Sierras 230 FMJ was the most accurate, but was much more costly.
YEP! that's the data I'm using, but actually says 905, for the IDPA and USPSA I've been loading 4.5 grains with a 230 coated bullet, but I have no idea how much I've decreased velocity? my club has a labradar, but it must be special because they never bring it out. I've got cans of unique and 2400 so it's good to have this data, the old BE was hotter.
Cmysix- Posts : 378
Join date : 2022-12-23
Age : 66
Location : Opelika Alabama
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
mbmshooter wrote:Cmysix wrote:I am loading out of a can of Hercules Bullseye, So I found some load data from 1986{hercules} and it says a 230 FMC 5 grns 905 fps
After I was no longer able to find and buy DOD White Box ammo, I began loading Winchester 230gr FMJ over 5.0gr of Bullseye in an effort to replicate the 820 fps of White Box. I never did chrono those loads but relied on info I was given.
If you have access to a chronograph, I would try to get as close as possible to the 820fps that Winchester found to be the "sweet spot" for their projectiles.
Mike
I tested some BE behind various 230 gr. bullets recently. My results were (average):
5.0 grains : 835 FPS
4.7 grains : 795 FPS
4.0 grains : 670 FPS
3.8 grains : 662 FPS
5 grains will get you to 820 without issue, at least, my lot of powder (purchased within last year or two) will. It's entirely possible in a different barrel this would turn in 820 FPS. Or another lot of powder. Or different case.
-Chase
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
deleted
Last edited by Chase Turner on Sat Sep 21, 2024 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
The barrel is out of the pistol I'm going to use for the challenge: it is a Kart 45 NM.
The thing I've noticed in this testing, which is not terribly extensive or deep enough to make big claims, is that these bullets don't seem to like to go fast (no matter the make).
I did take another Kart NM barrel with me to see if I could duplicate results between barrels. Again, not extensive testing by any means, but it seemed like one barrel preferred one bullet over another (same velocity/powder charge/case- only bullet was different) and the opposite choice was true in the other. Not conclusive in any sense, but anecdotally does give credence to the notion that pistol barrels can have preferences.
-Chase
The thing I've noticed in this testing, which is not terribly extensive or deep enough to make big claims, is that these bullets don't seem to like to go fast (no matter the make).
I did take another Kart NM barrel with me to see if I could duplicate results between barrels. Again, not extensive testing by any means, but it seemed like one barrel preferred one bullet over another (same velocity/powder charge/case- only bullet was different) and the opposite choice was true in the other. Not conclusive in any sense, but anecdotally does give credence to the notion that pistol barrels can have preferences.
-Chase
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Chase Turner wrote:The barrel is out of the pistol I'm going to use for the challenge: it is a Kart 45 NM.
The thing I've noticed in this testing, which is not terribly extensive or deep enough to make big claims, is that these bullets don't seem to like to go fast (no matter the make).
I did take another Kart NM barrel with me to see if I could duplicate results between barrels. Again, not extensive testing by any means, but it seemed like one barrel preferred one bullet over another (same velocity/powder charge/case- only bullet was different) and the opposite choice was true in the other. Not conclusive in any sense, but anecdotally does give credence to the notion that pistol barrels can have preferences.
-Chase
what is the difference between any barrel Kart makes and a Kart NM?
Cmysix- Posts : 378
Join date : 2022-12-23
Age : 66
Location : Opelika Alabama
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
All Kart barrel are NM quality barrels.
Jon
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Jon Eulette wrote:All Kart barrel are NM quality barrels.
Jon
OK, I own two actual NM pistols all the parts on the gun are marked NM came out of the RIA, built there, what makes a Kart barrel a NM?
Cmysix- Posts : 378
Join date : 2022-12-23
Age : 66
Location : Opelika Alabama
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
That Kart dimensions their barrels in the same way that the NM specification calls for is what makes their barrel a "National Match" barrel. Not sure who came up with the spec- Colt or the Army, be my guess.
I don't have it handy, but I believe the differences between a regular GI barrel and a NM one is outlined in the Kuhnhausen book. Volume 2, I think.
-Chase
I don't have it handy, but I believe the differences between a regular GI barrel and a NM one is outlined in the Kuhnhausen book. Volume 2, I think.
-Chase
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
NM barrels have oversized hoods and lugs for fitting to pistols. The barrel bores were air gauged for dimensional tolerances. I don't recall the standard/tolerance.
Kart made/makes NM barrels that were/are marked with NM serial numbers on the chamber area. I have a friend who has been educating me on some finer points of rifling designs. There were different groove to land ratios as well as number of lands.
Chambers were all over the place. They could vary as much as 0.020" headspacing after fitting. Headspace was actually controlled by the extractor.
Air gauging the bore was/is how bores were checked for uniformity/tolerance. Used for both rifle and pistol barrels.
Factory Colt barrels shoot excellent from a barrel test fixture. But their hood and lugs are under sized. So Giles and others used to shim the upper barrel lug when fitting to a slide. I personally do not care for this method. Clark welded and refit Colt barrels in majority of his pistol builds.
Jon
Kart made/makes NM barrels that were/are marked with NM serial numbers on the chamber area. I have a friend who has been educating me on some finer points of rifling designs. There were different groove to land ratios as well as number of lands.
Chambers were all over the place. They could vary as much as 0.020" headspacing after fitting. Headspace was actually controlled by the extractor.
Air gauging the bore was/is how bores were checked for uniformity/tolerance. Used for both rifle and pistol barrels.
Factory Colt barrels shoot excellent from a barrel test fixture. But their hood and lugs are under sized. So Giles and others used to shim the upper barrel lug when fitting to a slide. I personally do not care for this method. Clark welded and refit Colt barrels in majority of his pistol builds.
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Amanda4461 and RoyDean like this post
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
The article from that test is also a good read.
The pages are a little out of order at the link making it a little difficult to follow.
American Hand Gunner Sept./Oct. 1998 Charles Petty
[url=https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/c9b14fbd-cb95-41fc-aa9a-abc26840275a/downloads/Acuracy Got You Over A Barrel]https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/c9b14fbd-cb95-41fc-aa9a-abc26840275a/downloads/Acuracy%20Got%20You%20Over%20A%20Barrel%20Article.pdf?ver=1600177314209[/url]
The forum does not seem to like the links with spaces in them,
You can get to the article here:
Kart Precision Barrel Corp. - Kart, 1911 Colt Barrels (kartbarrel.com)
The pages are a little out of order at the link making it a little difficult to follow.
American Hand Gunner Sept./Oct. 1998 Charles Petty
[url=https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/c9b14fbd-cb95-41fc-aa9a-abc26840275a/downloads/Acuracy Got You Over A Barrel]https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/c9b14fbd-cb95-41fc-aa9a-abc26840275a/downloads/Acuracy%20Got%20You%20Over%20A%20Barrel%20Article.pdf?ver=1600177314209[/url]
The forum does not seem to like the links with spaces in them,
You can get to the article here:
Kart Precision Barrel Corp. - Kart, 1911 Colt Barrels (kartbarrel.com)
Last edited by shanneba on Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:57 am; edited 10 times in total (Reason for editing : fix link)
shanneba- Posts : 346
Join date : 2021-10-16
Age : 68
Location : Indiana
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Was filing away some of my older targets and chronographing data this morning & ran across tests I'd done with both WCC 90 and TZZ factory 230 ball match ammo.
Chrono 10' from muzzle.
Win-830.4, 810.9, 816.7, 812.5, 810.2, 805.2, 829.9, 816.2, 829.3, 809.4, 826.7.
TZZ- 830.4, 810.9, 831.2, 812.2, 805.9, 795.4, 817.0, 806.1, 803.4, 830.4
Data wasn't dated, but being I only chased points until 2003, it would have been sometime prior to that. The Winchester shot better at 50 than the TZZ, IIRC.
Al
Chrono 10' from muzzle.
Win-830.4, 810.9, 816.7, 812.5, 810.2, 805.2, 829.9, 816.2, 829.3, 809.4, 826.7.
TZZ- 830.4, 810.9, 831.2, 812.2, 805.9, 795.4, 817.0, 806.1, 803.4, 830.4
Data wasn't dated, but being I only chased points until 2003, it would have been sometime prior to that. The Winchester shot better at 50 than the TZZ, IIRC.
Al
Al- Posts : 651
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 69
Location : Bismarck, ND
fc60 and Chase Turner like this post
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Cmysix wrote:Jon Eulette wrote:All Kart barrel are NM quality barrels.
Jon
OK, I own two actual NM pistols all the parts on the gun are marked NM came out of the RIA, built there, what makes a Kart barrel a NM?
OK thank you all! I now have an understanding.
Cmysix- Posts : 378
Join date : 2022-12-23
Age : 66
Location : Opelika Alabama
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Jon,
Thank you for posting this chart. Even though it's 25 years old it still illustrates that the barrel maker does make a difference. There are several other manufacturers such as KKM not listed which seem to provide very good results.
My question is this: does it make sense for a gun builder such as yourself to bother testing a batch of barrels BEFORE even beginning the build process?
I can think of at least one such 'smith who wound up rejecting the majority of the barrels he received.
What say you?
Mike
p.s.
I noticed that all of these tests were performed using the Federal Gold Medal 185gr FMJ-SWC ammo. This, of course, was the "gold standard" ammo used by many/most gunsmiths for their test targets.
I still have over three cases of this GM45B ammo, lot#FC-02H021-001.
mbmshooter- Posts : 255
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Prescott, Arizona
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Does it matter or can the average smith afford it. If I was younger I would own one. Just my experience with one this year
jglenn21- Posts : 2621
Join date : 2015-04-07
Age : 76
Location : monroe , ga
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Mike,
I can answer that question, but it will cost you 3 cases of ammunition!
In last 30 years I've had 3 barrels not shoot to expectations. We're replaced for free but I had to refit new barrels. If I used one I would have to start charging more for my services.
When I test fire a new build I can tell if it's grouping or not right away. Also the way I fit my barrels, when new they will string slightly vertical from RR. But shoot perfectly on call from hand. John Zurek has set 4 national records with gun built this way. It's never been rested.
I have customers send me RR groups that are darn good after some mileage on the guns.
Maybe someday.....
Jon
I can answer that question, but it will cost you 3 cases of ammunition!
In last 30 years I've had 3 barrels not shoot to expectations. We're replaced for free but I had to refit new barrels. If I used one I would have to start charging more for my services.
When I test fire a new build I can tell if it's grouping or not right away. Also the way I fit my barrels, when new they will string slightly vertical from RR. But shoot perfectly on call from hand. John Zurek has set 4 national records with gun built this way. It's never been rested.
I have customers send me RR groups that are darn good after some mileage on the guns.
Maybe someday.....
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Jon,Jon Eulette wrote:Mike,
I can answer that question, but it will cost you 3 cases of ammunition!
In last 30 years I've had 3 barrels not shoot to expectations. We're replaced for free but I had to refit new barrels. If I used one I would have to start charging more for my services.
When I test fire a new build I can tell if it's grouping or not right away. Also the way I fit my barrels, when new they will string slightly vertical from RR. But shoot perfectly on call from hand. John Zurek has set 4 national records with gun built this way. It's never been rested.
I have customers send me RR groups that are darn good after some mileage on the guns.
Maybe someday.....
Jon
I'll swap you the ammo for one of your sub-one inch .45s.
Mike
mbmshooter- Posts : 255
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Prescott, Arizona
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
deleted
Last edited by Chase Turner on Sat Sep 21, 2024 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
If you have any interest in Factory 45 230 gr match ammo, Federal shows the Gold Medal 230gr FMJ in stock $72.99 / 50 , Midway also has it with a limit of 2 boxes at $59.99 /50
Federal shows a muzzle velocity of 860fps
Federal shows a muzzle velocity of 860fps
Last edited by shanneba on Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : speeling error)
shanneba- Posts : 346
Join date : 2021-10-16
Age : 68
Location : Indiana
PacFltShooter- Posts : 59
Join date : 2019-03-08
Age : 69
Location : Illinois
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Well, if anyone is interested in going this direction, I would sell this case of Remington Match 230 gr ball a lot cheaper than that.shanneba wrote:If you have any interest in Factory 45 230 gr match ammo, Federal shows the Gold Metal 230gr FMJ in stock $72.99 / 50 , Midway also has it with a limit of 2 boxes at $59.99 /50
Federal shows a muzzle velocity of 860fps
Phil
PMcfall- Posts : 395
Join date : 2011-06-16
Location : St. Joseph, MO
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
mbmshooter
I noticed that all of these tests were performed using the Federal Gold Medal 185gr FMJ-SWC ammo. This, of course, was the "gold standard" ammo used by many/most gunsmiths for their test targets.
I still have over three cases of this GM45B ammo, lot#FC-02H021-001.
For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.
I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.
I noticed that all of these tests were performed using the Federal Gold Medal 185gr FMJ-SWC ammo. This, of course, was the "gold standard" ammo used by many/most gunsmiths for their test targets.
I still have over three cases of this GM45B ammo, lot#FC-02H021-001.
For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.
I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.
Last edited by shanneba on Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total
shanneba- Posts : 346
Join date : 2021-10-16
Age : 68
Location : Indiana
Re: 45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024
Only $1.46/shot….now that’s hard ball!shanneba wrote:For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.
I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.
TonyH- Posts : 804
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie
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