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How Not To Fit NM Barrel

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tovaert
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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:02 am

Unfortunately there are people and gunsmiths who have no business fitting a NM barrel. And to make matters worse there are those who charge you money to do this Sad

This barrel was not contacting/bearing on the slide stop pin. Meaning barrel moved freely vertically in battery.
To make matters worse there is no flat bearing surface.  If barrel had made contact with the slide stop pin it would've unlocked immediately. My opinion you get more felt recoil because slide is not being slowed down during unlocking process and no real repeatable accuracy.
A stock RO barrel is fit better than this Colt NM barrel.
So when you think about labor prices of fitting a barrel, remember what you're paying for.
Jon
How Not To Fit NM Barrel 20231010
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Post by Rush223 Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:38 am

I have no ambitions to fit a gunsmith fit barrel. But by following your posts I’m learning what to look for in a pistol. 
Could you post a picture of one done perfectly. 
Rush

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Post by zanemoseley Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:01 am

That's horrible. Wonder how long that could have been shot till that ear snapped off.

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Post by WesG Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:45 pm

Considering the quotes we've gotten for plumbing in a 2500 gallon water tank (we already have) and adding a pressure pump to our well ....

Whatever you want to charge for fitting a barrel is fine with me :-)

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Post by Froneck Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:29 am

Here is a photo Jon posted a while ago. I looked for a photo of my lower lug I also posted quite a while ago but I think it's on my old computer! However my lower lug is identical to the one Jon posted. It's the best way to do the lower lug, the front is Not Rounded!How Not To Fit NM Barrel 1b7df910

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Post by Jon Eulette Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:35 am

That's a good pic for two reasons.  First it shows original barrel fit. Then you can see the micro laser welded surface refit correctly. 
This is a Colt 45 ACP Kit Gun Barrel from a 1970 Kit Gun built by Shockey. I have another kit gun by Giles that is worse. 
Slide travels linearly on frame rails. The bottom barrel lugs should be parallel  to frame/slide rails. 99% of old school 1911"s and poorly fit guns are not parallel. So you get a nice RR test target, but they are unforgiving as he'll from hand. I have recently acquired two really nicely built older Clark's. I have to work pretty hard to hold 10 ring at 25 yds. They recoil harsher and unlock quickly from battery making it harder to shoot them well. Shooting the welded up barrel pistol I'm holding X. It really makes that much difference. 
Sadly it's common to be disillusioned that owning an older Clark, Giles, etc is a great match pistol, but in reality it's ready to be rebarreled.
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Post by Allgoodhits Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:21 am

Jon Eulette wrote:That's a good pic for two reasons.  First it shows original barrel fit. Then you can see the micro laser welded surface refit correctly. 
This is a Colt 45 ACP Kit Gun Barrel from a 1970 Kit Gun built by Shockey. I have another kit gun by Giles that is worse. 
Slide travels linearly on frame rails. The bottom barrel lugs should be parallel  to frame/slide rails. 99% of old school 1911"s and poorly fit guns are not parallel. So you get a nice RR test target, but they are unforgiving as he'll from hand. I have recently acquired two really nicely built older Clark's. I have to work pretty hard to hold 10 ring at 25 yds. They recoil harsher and unlock quickly from battery making it harder to shoot them well. Shooting the welded up barrel pistol I'm holding X. It really makes that much difference. 
Sadly it's common to be disillusioned that owning an older Clark, Giles, etc is a great match pistol, but in reality it's ready to be rebarreled.
Jon

Jon and Froneck, thank you for your comments on this.

Jon,

Your last post about RR results vs from hand results as pinged my interest. Considering .45 acp I can get better RR results using Nosler or Zero 185 hr JHP compared to either Brazos, Bayou or Zero lead or coated bullets. However, off hand, I shoot Brazos, Bayou or Zero lead or coated bullets better. Perhaps, follow through plays a roll here. As a point of conversation when using 185 gr bullets, my JHPs are loaded 2 - 3/10ths grain more than same weight lead or coated, so I think the fps is about the same, although they may not be. Are the lead loads staying "locked up" a little longer? I get same results with a Shue built gun with a Kart barrel and an Accuracy X built gun with a KKM barrel. Both guns are quite accurate.

~ Martin
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Post by Jon Eulette Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:54 am

Martin,
In the last year From the ammunition perspective I've seen some really interesting results.
From barrel test fixture I've seen lots of horrible 50 yd groups from commercial cast bullets and some swaged.
Jacketed bullets seem to always perform well.

I've shot a load (specific brand bullets and powder combo) from hand that all shots were tightly on call at 50 and shoot like hell from barrel test fixture. 

My preferred method of barrel fitting will shoot less than 1.5" wide with some vertical stringing from RR. That's why I don't RR my builds. But from hand on call. Zurek has set 4 national records with gun built like this; several 890+ and 2660's. 

Lead bullet quality is all over the place. Home cast are considerably out performing commercial cast bullets when tested.

When talking to other shooters/customers I'm hearing lotsa talk about shots going off call. When I inspect their pistols I'm seeing poorly fit barrels which I know from experience will not perform consistently and in most cases unforgiving.  Rebarreling properly fixes the issues. 

Looser barrel fits seem to like slightly hotter loads.  I assume it helps it stay in battery longer/harder from higher pressures, but don't know for sure.

I shoot a ton of different older bullseye guns. I do it as a validation of my barrel fitting. A 45 should be your friend when you shoot it. Most older guns are not your friend.  They require too much work to shoot them well. They recoil more harshly and their accuracy is marginal at best.

So we have shooter dynamics and the pistol. They have to work together for best results. I've seen many sub 2" RR pistols that I would never compete with because they weren't friendly from hand.

So the hard part is really knowing what you have. Do you really have a good accurate pistol? It's easy to believe we do when it groups from RR but you struggle to call your shots. Obviously a higher classified shooter will be better at calling shots.

I think shooters should spend more time shooting offhand than spending time using RR. I'd rather be a master shooter than a master of the RR.

There's very few 2650+ gunsmiths out there. We can shoot a pistol and we know things lol. In all seriousness, we have to know if our gun is on the money and our ammunition. When we know it is, it's up to us to perform. In most cases that's the weakest link, but it really helps having a really good fitting barrel.

So your probably just fine Martin with your setup.

Jon


Last edited by Jon Eulette on Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Merick Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:42 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
So the hard part is really knowing what you have. Do you really have a good accurate pistol?

If a rr won't tell us and 2650 shooters aren't around, how can we know?

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Post by chopper Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:56 pm

I like to rest my pistol on my pistol rest with a small sandbag. I do this standing up in my normal stance, position, and grip, just like I'm shooting for score. BTW I just found a pistol rest for a air pistol. Works great, and helps with practice. 
Stan

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Post by Jon Eulette Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:09 pm

Merick wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:
So the hard part is really knowing what you have. Do you really have a good accurate pistol?

If a rr won't tell us and 2650 shooters aren't around, how can we know?  
If you have apistol from reputable gunsmith and it's not a high mileage pistol, the RR will tell you about your pistol and load.
Then learn to shoot it and learn to call your shots.
Unfortunately lower classified shooters are at a disadvantage, and that's just plain simple facts. Do the best with what you have.
But in my experience the older guns aren't doing you any favors.
I'm pretty opinionated about it, but I'm basing it on real experience from the competition and gunsmithing side of the equation. 
Jon
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Post by jglenn21 Fri Oct 20, 2023 3:40 pm

you're opinionated ????? lol!
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Post by jglenn21 Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:13 pm

It's interesting that the old AMU gunsmith manuals from back in the 60s used two different lower lug types. What we would call a wedge fit today was used for wad guns, while the longer lower lug cut was recommended for Ball pistols. 

The real trick with the long lower lugs is fitting the link. An entirely new conversation.
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Post by Wobbley Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:54 pm

Merick wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:
So the hard part is really knowing what you have. Do you really have a good accurate pistol?

If a rr won't tell us and 2650 shooters aren't around, how can we know?  
Shoot it from a rest.  Use a dot.  By a rest it doesn’t have to be elaborate.  A small backpack stuffed with a pillow will do.  Rest your forearm on the backpack (which is on a table) with you seated behind it.  The wrist and hand/gun should not be rested .  Rest your head on your bicep and align this whole setup on the bullseye.  If you need to, shoot with two hands.  You’ll know if you get more than 3 out of 10 that move during trigger activation.  I shoot these to check the accuracy of my load AND my basic zero of the pistol.  The range I usually shoot is 25 yards.  If the gun shoots the “X” ring or smaller that’s an indication that the gun/load is accurate.

Like this target.  Those two high were called.  This load and sight setting indicate that any 8 or worse is me not the gun.  Do I KNOW what this ammo shoots like at 50? No but I can infer that it will be at least solid 9/10 ring.  Ammo shooting this well seldom falls apart at 50.  People had a tendency to shoot a group at 25 that was mostly 10s and they’d wonder why they had failures at 50.   Could it be better?  Maybe…but for my level, this will do, for now. How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_0219u
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Post by tovaert Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:47 am

Wobbley wrote:Shoot it from a rest.  Use a dot.  By a rest it doesn’t have to be elaborate. 
Agree. Every new addition will be capable of using a dot from now on (assuming it's possible). However, I believe you have to stabilize the front of the slide from L-R movement. I shoot two handed and use a V-shaped rest, with practice you can develop consistent downwards pressure on the dust cover to minimize vertical stringing. I cover the (50 yd) x-ring with an orange paster, but adjust the POI to preserve the paster. Dot-on-dot alignment, so not too difficult to minimize disturbing the sights as you squeeze the trigger.

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Post by Froneck Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:21 pm

To do some testing Adam purchased a 10X variable pistol scope and shot it using an adjustable pistol rest. 10X made it easy to see and hold with the rest perfectly in center of the target. Paster helps Magnified pistol scope even a cheap scope will do god at 50 yards!

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Post by NukeMMC Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:46 pm

Rush223 wrote:I have no ambitions to fit a gunsmith fit barrel. But by following your posts I’m learning what to look for in a pistol. 
Could you post a picture of one done perfectly. 
Rush
Here is a Bar-Sto 45 barrel Jon fit:
How Not To Fit NM Barrel 20231012

And a Wilson/Nolin ramped KKM 38 super barrel he fit:
How Not To Fit NM Barrel 20231015

In comparison, an original fitment 1965 GoldCup 45 barrel:
How Not To Fit NM Barrel 20231014
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Post by randy86314 Sat Oct 28, 2023 6:53 pm

jglenn21 said:  "The real trick with the long lower lugs is fitting the link. An entirely new conversation."

That is a conversation I would love to hear.

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Post by randy86314 Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:04 pm

Jon Eulette said:  "How not to fit NM barrel"

This is a very interesting thread, as are several other recent threads by JonE about building and adjusting M1911 pistols for accuracy. Thankyou.

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Post by burkefj Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:02 am

This is very interesting and just what I was looking for I have three nearly identical les baer 1911s, I'm running a fairly soft load of 3.5 grains of bullseye with a 200 grain coated semi-wad cutter, on one of them the accuracy started to drop off at around 25,000 rounds and the other one closer to 10,000 so I replaced them with kart exact fit barrels, and now I'm able to run 13 lb flat wire springs with no issues, my latest which is a premiere II can function reliably with a 17 lb flat wire spring, they have the same mainspring weight and they all have rounded firing pin stops.  I was wondering if the bearing surface on the bottom of the lugs could have an impact on that and reading this thread made me drag out the old barrels and take some photos.  I had a 19 61 national match pistol from the DCM that had a small flat on the slide stop and a fairly long flat bearing surface you could see the slide move back quite a ways before the barrel started to drop down. Looking at these lugs it looks like the contact point is very small and near the front of the flat surface and maybe that's why they needed heavier springs and why the accuracy eventually dropped off..
It also doesn't appear that the lug bottom is actually parallel to the rails there's a slight slope to them.
On a side note I don't remember what the lug feet look like on the kart barrels as they come from the factory as I didn't touch them I just use the fitting pads they come with so I don't know what you're feeling is on the stock kart lug shape and how long the accuracy might hold up with those barrels.


Last edited by burkefj on Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by burkefj Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:07 am

How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_2042
How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_2043
How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_2040
How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_2041

As a side note not to crap all over Baer, but on that new Premiere, I was trying to clean the inside of the magazine well and noticed this hard thing stuck in there that wouldn't come out I finally realized it's part of the PIN holding in the ejector they must have drilled the hole a little bit too far forward and it actually protruded into the magazine well slightly, I don't think it's a problem right now and I've dressed it down with a Jeweler's file even though it wasn't causing me any problems after 7,000 rounds through the pistol but it bothered me.
How Not To Fit NM Barrel Img_2044


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Post by DA/SA Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:31 am

That's definitely how NOT how to fit a NM barrel!
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