9mm Distinguished Medals

by Axehandle Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:59 am

I still remember the old heads whining when they started using the Beretta 92 for Leg Matches. One said, "The distinguished metal should be smaller if won with a 9mm." Smile

Back then the services had their own specific set of rules. I believe the USMC had the most restrictions. I understood that their regulation specified specific USMC matches where the points must be won. My USAF memory says, only one State championship, only one regional leg and the remainder at higher levels. The Army recognized points from the Combat match. THE USAF recognized one combat leg.

The rules for the gun was the same for everyone.

9mm Distinguished Medals 9zqBZ19

by BE Mike Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:54 am

I got distinguished with my Clark accurized 1911 hardball pistol using factory 230 gr. FMJ ammo. Later I had Tony Kidd build me a Beretta. The Beretta was more accurate with the right ammo, but the ammo had to be pretty hot to group well at 50 yds. I ended up shooting similar scores with the Beretta that I had shot with the 1911. I pretty much decided that it really just came down to the operator.

by chiz1180 Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:15 am

P100 record is held by a m9, said record holder has said it is harder because the holes are smaller. You want a 10, you have to shoot a 10 regardless of caliber

by **Wobbley** Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:20 am

Just like the whining the rifle guys heard when it was announced that the USAMU would compete only with the M16 in the future. This happened about 1989-1990…Funny thing is, scores actually began to creep up. Now hardly anyone shoots a 30 caliber rifle. Now they shoot with optics and scores are even higher. The fact is that the 1911 hasn’t been THE service pistol since 1985 or so. Eventually, optics may be legal on pistols. The badge is the badge and the path to get there is the path. It doesn’t diminish the award.

by Axehandle Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:46 pm

Guess I sort of left out that I am one of the Whiny old heads. Heck, the Army even made the pistol metal smaller than the rifle medal... AF? Even the bronze and silver medals were the same size.

9mm Distinguished Medals BkcpK2q

by BE Mike Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:24 pm

Good job. Not everyone who starts out to win the EIC badge ends up getting one!

by Rush223 Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:23 pm

Pistol Distinguished is my goal. I hope to make it before optics are allowed. I made rifle before optics.
Rush

by brassmaster Wed Nov 08, 2023 4:52 pm

Wobbley wrote:Just like the whining the rifle guys heard when it was announced that the USAMU would compete only with the M16 in the future. This happened about 1989-1990…Funny thing is, scores actually began to creep up. Now hardly anyone shoots a 30 caliber rifle. Now they shoot with optics and scores are even higher. The fact is that the 1911 hasn’t been THE service pistol since 1985 or so. Eventually, optics may be legal on pistols. The badge is the badge and the path to get there is the path. It doesn’t diminish the award.

Wobbley, over the years I have found your comments both informative and insightful; however, this time I must respectively disagree. I began shooting Service Pistol Matches back in the day when the CMP issued 30 rounds of "White Box Match" 230 gr FMJ to each competitor and a 1911 .45acp with very limited changes was the only pistol permitted. This, in my view, put every competitor on equal footing--same type of pistol, same ammo.
Now a large array of different pistols are allowed, 20+/- Service Pistol Modifications are allowed and "... any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-plated bullets..." Furthermore, extensive loading & testing by competitors to find the "Holy Grail" combination of accuracy at 50 yards with the softest recoil possible is ongoing.
Moreover, in my opinion any competitor that has a history of "old-school" Service Pistol competitions using a 45acp with 230 gr Hardball is more challenging compared to firing a 9mm, 40 S&W, 38 Super, etc., with soft recoil loads. I rest my case with a question and answer; why are competitor .22 scores and CF scores (typically) substantially higher than the .45 scores & Service Pistol scores? Using a pistol & ammunition with less recoil.

by Cmysix Thu Nov 09, 2023 3:18 am

this is why IDPA and USPSA use the power factor

by james r chapman Thu Nov 09, 2023 3:55 am

Sheesh, the “always” debate.

The playing fields are never level for all eras of any sport.
But, it’s just as difficult to be a “top dog” now, as it was in the ‘50’s.

by TonyH Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:51 am

To keep metal equity in balance, we should stop distinguishing between them and just enjoy them as they are!

by Neil308 Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:07 am

Basssmaster with respect, it’s never been a level playing field. Military teams and top gunsmith have always had better equipment. No one shows up at camp perry with a as issued 1945 pistol that barely holds paper and wins NTI. Top shooters and yourself I’m sure , would build the best gun they can according to the rule books that are in place at the time.
Neil

by BE Mike Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:31 am

It has been said that back in the day (I say that a lot) military teams had access to issued ball ammo and matched it up with their guns for EIC matches, where the ammo was issued. I don't personally know whether or not that is true. I think that fatigue has an effect upon .45 match scores when folks are shooting a 2700 in one day. As far as, major matches, where folks are shooting each caliber match on separate days, most folks, including the military shooters shoot the same pistol on CF & .45 days. Besides heavier recoil, I think the 4 lb. trigger weight is a big factor to overcome with the service pistol.

by Neil308 Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:41 am

Where do you think they got the ammo from? Lol. it was donated by the military teams.

by chiz1180 Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:30 am

brassmaster wrote:
Wobbley wrote:Just like the whining the rifle guys heard when it was announced that the USAMU would compete only with the M16 in the future. This happened about 1989-1990…Funny thing is, scores actually began to creep up. Now hardly anyone shoots a 30 caliber rifle. Now they shoot with optics and scores are even higher. The fact is that the 1911 hasn’t been THE service pistol since 1985 or so. Eventually, optics may be legal on pistols. The badge is the badge and the path to get there is the path. It doesn’t diminish the award.
I rest my case with a question and answer; why are competitor .22 scores and CF scores (typically) substantially higher than the .45 scores & Service Pistol scores? Using a pistol & ammunition with less recoil.

My personal experience is contrary to your answer. I have on several occasions shot a 38spl 1911 as a CF gun and consistently have out shot the 38 with the 45, in one case even with a visible miss in 45. My 38 load was 2.7wst with a 148hbwc, my 45 load was 4.6 Bullseye with a 185jhp, both guns have a 3.5lb trigger. Both loads will group significantly sub 10 ring in each respective gun, and from a recoil perspective the 45 indeed does have more recoil. Furthermore if a sub 45 caliber CF gun had a significant advantage, every single MA/HM shooter would be shooting one.

In my observation of running leagues and matches, people tend to have higher scores with the guns they put the most time behind. Most people spend more time behind a 22 than a 45, like wise more people spend time behind a dot than metallic sights. Gotta put in the work to get results, you can't just walk out on the line and expect to have great sucess if you didn't put in the work.

The argument that 9mm is easier than 45 is a joke. Every time someone makes the argument that it always comes off as an excuse.

by Merick Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:46 am

If the medals were sized proportionally by miles driven in search of eic matches current medals would probably be at least 3 times larger than the ones from when ball ammo was issued on the line. Further accounting for the medals going from solid gold to gold plate and a tenfold rise in the cost of components, today they should be the size of roman shields or car hoods.

by Axehandle Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:54 am

FWIW I was sad when I heard that the Army distinguished medal went from solid 14K gold to plated. I remember hearing the Army shooters whine. Never got the details on the AF badge. Knowing the AF I'd bet it was plated from day one. Did hear that the Navy medal was once solid 20K gold. I heard that they couldn't wear them because of how soft they were.

by james r chapman Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:36 am

Navy? Or medal? lol!

by Brian Mason Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:55 pm

My EIC scores immediately went up about 10 points on average when I switched from 230GR ball in a 1911 to an M9. This was after I legged out and before the change to any jacketed ammo.

by Axehandle Sun Nov 12, 2023 6:02 am

Civilian vs Military? Now that is a good fluff point. Not only do the military shooters have better guns and ammo but they have military exclusive matches! Smile

Let's throw in points from the combat leg matches too!~ Very Happy

I'd guess that my AFPG marked hardball gun was as good as they get. Didn't get to check the issued ammo before matches though. Then I remember being required to shoot hardball 900s in CF and 45 matches until I made expert. Before they bumped up the score for Master up to 95% those "expert" scores would be master scores.

FWIW the free guns, free ammo, match fees paid, a GOV with gas for transportation, food, and furnished quarters was a wonderful time in my life. Didn't fully recognize it at the time.. Very Happy

by NukeMMC Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:18 pm

OK, someone has to be the nitpicky SOB here ...

- First off, they would be meDals that are made of meTal

- Medals are suspended by a ribbon. Since they are suspended by a chain, they are badges.

- Badges ... we ain't got no stinkin badges!

(admin couldn't sleep over it. corrected spelling on post title. Cool

)

by NukeMMC Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:23 pm

Axehandle wrote:Civilian vs Military? Now that is a good fluff point. Not only do the military shooters have better guns and ammo but they have military exclusive matches! Let's throw in points from the combat leg matches too!~ I'd guess that my AFPG marked hardball gun was as good as they get. Didn't get to check the issued ammo before matches though. Then I remember being required to shoot hardball 900s in CF and 45 matches until I made expert. Before they bumped up the score for Master up to 95% those "expert" scores would be master scores.

FWIW the free guns, free ammo, match fees paid, a GOV with gas for transportation, food, and furnished quarters was a wonderful time in my life. Didn't fully recognize it at the time..

Obviously not a USN or USCG shooter after about 1985. Guns were sometimes available, outside of the matches, ammo wasn't. At Navy matches the issued pistol ammo was rarely Match after about 1988. Normally it was TZZ ball. That stuff was a bit "warm". Did get 20pts with that stuff back then though.

Funded orders??? Hahahahahahahahahaha. Most of us had to take leave and beg for no-cost TAD orders to attend Fleet, All-Navy, Interservice or Nationals. Like you said though, I enjoyed it immensly and wish I realized it better back then.

by Rush223 Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:16 pm

Wasn’t the EIC pistol matches originally fired with a 38 caliber revolver.
Wasn’t that the service pistol of the era.

Rush

by MarkF45 Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:39 am

Every time the NRA or CMP changes the rules, somebody whines about "it's too easy, It was SO much harder back in my day"

I don't want to hear it.

WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE SHOOTING COMPETITIONS AT ALL!

The gun banners hate shooting competitions just as much as they hate people carrying guns for self-defense.

Precision Pistol shooters are getting too old to compete, and not being replaced by young people. They're going to IPSC/USPSA/IDPA.

The NRA is a sinking ship (but that's another story). The CMP is trying to pick up the slack.

Olympic shooting is becoming a joke.

I have been shooting pistol competitively since I was 18. I'm 63 now. 45 years of challenge, fun and adventure. I will continue to shoot as long as wonderful people are still running matches. I will stop when they stop, or I can't hold the gun up anymore.

I love this sport. Think positively, everyone. Talk about the 9 tens on the target, and forget about the seven.

by dmdattner Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:09 pm

It is unfortunate that no matter the discipline, this kind of comparison comes up.

The fact of the matter is that those who work harder at the task normally come out on top.

Derek

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