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Wheeler Trigger Pull Gage - anybody try this yet?

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BE Mike
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Post by Gustavo1957 2/17/2024, 6:40 am

Hello,

 I have an older Lyman that doesn't seem consistent.
Wheeler Trigger Pull Gage - anybody try this yet? Wheele10
 Anybody use and have comments on this Wheeler?

  TY

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Post by joeangi 2/17/2024, 7:09 am

I use the wheeler- works well. Certainly not used like in that photo

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Post by Froneck 2/17/2024, 8:40 am

Problem I have with gauges other than what is used at matches (NRA metal hanging weight) is that there might be a difference. I find it best to use what will be used at matches. Only exception is I have the lower weights in ounces. That way I can get less than 1/4lb. Not to set pull weight but to test repeatability, my pull weight is set a few oz above required weight but then tested to see what will drop the hammer repeatedly. Legal weight means nothing to the shooter other than match requirements, actual weight to release the hammer is important to the shooter!

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Post by BE Mike 2/17/2024, 8:50 am

Froneck wrote:Problem I have with gauges other than what is used at matches (NRA metal hanging weight) is that there might be a difference. I find it best to use what will be used at matches. Only exception is I have the lower weights in ounces. That way I can get less than 1/4lb. Not to set pull weight but to test repeatability, my pull weight is set a few oz above required weight but then tested to see what will drop the hammer repeatedly. Legal weight means nothing to the shooter other than match requirements, actual weight to release the hammer is important to the shooter!
Even hanging weights can give a false impression of the actual trigger weights if the user doesn't know how to properly weigh a trigger. I've seen NRA refs. who had no clue, but they are the rare exception. I've used the hanging metal weights and the Wheeler. They both worked well for me. I've used both with the muzzle of the pistol pointed straight up. I can't imagine that letting the Wheeler drag against the base of the thumb would be a good thing.
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Post by Allgoodhits 2/17/2024, 10:16 am

FWIW, I have both NRA weights with the solid shaft and a Lyman electronic. Obviously, the weights must be used vertically, thus the muzzle up. However the electronic gauge can be used vertically or horizontally, and up or down.

I have found that when you hit the reset or calibrate on the electronic gauge you should do so holding the gauge in the manner that you will be testing the trigger weight. For me, this is typically horizontal. The weight of the shaft upward, horizontal or downward has an effect on the calibration, since the shaft has weight.

Additionally, since I have both NRA and electronic, I will use the electronic gauge to lift a known weight of the NRA weights. There is a slight variation, but the variation is consistent. Knowing this is very useful. If you can find, and if you stomach the cost of NRA weights, that is great. If you can't or choose not to, then a good electronic scale is ok to work with knowing it's accuracy error. Also remember that a gauge will measure the force to move an object. the weight can only measure that it will equal hold. I don't believe a trigger set at exactly 2 lbs will move/lift a 2 lb weight. If your trigger will lift a 2 lb weight, then the energy required to cause that trigger to drop the hammer is greater than 2 lbs. I believe the wording is trigger must "hold" a given weight, therefore it must lift it first.

Last, you can do things with an electronic scale that you cannot do with weights. I used to shoot a lot of NRA Action Pistol and in that sport we most often shoot on falling plates. For CF the plates are supposed to be calibrated so that a "standard" 9mm round will topple them, as they must fall to count as a hit. Plate racks vary quite a bit, and a hit which doesn't topple the plate is almost always questioned by the shooter. So, we would set a plate or two so that the fore and aft lean was such that a standard 9mm load would push them back far enough so that they would fall. We are looking for the minimum energy needed to topple them. Once we got that pitch/lean for that rack, I would use the electronic gauge to measure how much pull was required to pull the plate backwards, so that it would be at a point where it would fall backwards and not reset forward. We found that once this was established, setting the remaining plates with this same resistance was very reliable. As long as the plate was not moved, or adjustment bolts did not change then this was the calibration for the day. Again, only looking for enough energy for the impact to have enough force to move the plate beyond TDC so that it would topple backwards. Of course, you need to make sure they are not too light, otherwise on a wobbly rack, sometimes plates would fall not yet hit. You may be able to use an electronic gauge to set plates for .22LR matches too, but it is best to use 1/8" plates instead of 3/8" for that.
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Post by UnGe 2/17/2024, 11:48 am

joeangi wrote:I use the wheeler- works well. Certainly not used like in that photo
Why? And what other method do you use? 
I find the recommended one (and shown on photo) as the most consistent
[Edit] looked at photo better, yes, it is the wrong way, push should be on the trigger, not on the right side as shown

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Post by UnGe 2/17/2024, 12:14 pm

I like Wheeler, but it has couple problems that make it less convenient and reliable than desired:

- Very cumbersome to use. The arm moves only to the sides that limit ways to position the gun and trigger finger
- Very fat probe, that makes it practically impossible to position on the trigger consistently


At the end, I use it to get close to required pull, but still verify with NRA-style scale (or more like Ed Hall one, weighted with used air gun pellets)

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Post by joeangi 2/18/2024, 3:43 am

I always pulled on the housing of the gauge- similar to the picture on the Wheeler site 

Wheeler Trigger Pull Gage - anybody try this yet? Ff8b5a6a-5aae-4636-9630-20d60a137784

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Post by bruce martindale 2/18/2024, 6:31 am

I have an extra RCBS that I’ll give you.

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https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t20747-feeling-center-a-10-bullsey

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Post by Rodger Barthlow 2/18/2024, 8:22 am

bruce martindale wrote:I have an extra RCBS that I’ll give you.
Bruce I sent you a PM
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Post by UnGe 2/18/2024, 11:17 am

joeangi wrote:I always pulled on the housing of the gauge- similar to the picture on the Wheeler site 

Pulling on the housing will not give you consistent results, too many variables involved - angle that just cannot be parallel to the barrel (this can be done only if your pulling force application is directly behind the trigger), "springiness" of the sensor arm, both hands involved, etc.

Pushing directly on the sensor, while just supporting the base to have the right angle, will be the most reliable

https://www.btibrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1062198-Wheeler-Professional-Digital-Trigger-Gauge-Instructions-rev-B-PROOF.pdf

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Post by BE Mike 2/18/2024, 11:33 am

UnGe wrote:
joeangi wrote:I always pulled on the housing of the gauge- similar to the picture on the Wheeler site 

Pulling on the housing will not give you consistent results, too many variables involved - angle that just cannot be parallel to the barrel (this can be done only if your pulling force application is directly behind the trigger), "springiness" of the sensor arm, both hands involved, etc.

Pushing directly on the sensor, while just supporting the base to have the right angle, will be the most reliable

https://www.btibrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1062198-Wheeler-Professional-Digital-Trigger-Gauge-Instructions-rev-B-PROOF.pdf
How do you hold the device and gun while pulling the trigger?
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Post by UnGe 2/18/2024, 11:48 am

BE Mike wrote:
UnGe wrote:
joeangi wrote:I always pulled on the housing of the gauge- similar to the picture on the Wheeler site 

Pulling on the housing will not give you consistent results, too many variables involved - angle that just cannot be parallel to the barrel (this can be done only if your pulling force application is directly behind the trigger), "springiness" of the sensor arm, both hands involved, etc.

Pushing directly on the sensor, while just supporting the base to have the right angle, will be the most reliable

https://www.btibrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1062198-Wheeler-Professional-Digital-Trigger-Gauge-Instructions-rev-B-PROOF.pdf
How do you hold the device and gun while pulling the trigger?
For using with the right hand: hold the gun normally, insert the sensor from the left, support gauge with the left hand to keep its arm parallel to the barrel, pull the trigger with the sensor between your finger and trigger. May be hard to do if trigger guard is too close. 
To make it more precise (though I did not see a big difference), one can shift grip a little to extend a trigger finger to compensate for "trigger" distance being further.

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Post by joeangi 2/18/2024, 4:31 pm

Will give it a try that way next time I use it. Thanks

Joe

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Post by Froneck 2/19/2024, 2:42 pm

I didn't say I don't have a pull gauge. I use the NRA weight type to insure I meet with match requirements since that type gauge will be used at matches. I also find the the vertical measurement as per NRA rules is very consistent. Naturally the pistol is not shot that way. My guess that some type of compression device that is ultra thin placed between the finger and the trigger so that release pressure can be measured in the shooting position would be best. Only gauge I know of is the shooters brain. Therefor if vertical NRA test satisfies match requirements then the shooter brain  is next! If it feels good then use it! I've also found there is very little difference between vertical and horizontal pull weight. The actual difference is created by the shooter and usually a 3.6lb hammer release and what the shooter feels is the way the trigger is pulled. A shooter with short fingers but long pull length trigger will tend to push the trigger to the opposite side of the shooting hand, revers that and the trigger is pulled to the shooters hand. That adds drag and increases release weight. So length of pull is very important and should be considered more than horizontal gauge weight measurement.

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