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45 ACP lighter loads feel wild /w higher muzzle flip

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funski
243winxb
spursnguns
Centerline
james r chapman
Cmysix
SingleActionAndrew
PhotoEscape
BE Mike
chiz1180
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MkFiji
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Post by MkFiji Sun Mar 17, 2024 3:09 am

Hi guys,

My lower powder reloads feel really wild sometimes and I was reading about choosing the right spring on cajungunworks(https://cajungunworks.com/how-to-select-the-proper-recoil-spring/) and I'm wondering, is my spring too light?

Perhaps it's a different gun so it shoots differently but I can't think of why my lighter loads would occasionally have a really high muzzle rise.  It really surprises me and throws me off during rapid!

Accuracy is fine, but the variation really gets me.  I don't have this issue with my long line load of 4.7gr BE(which shoots like Atlanta Arms Elite and has a 800fps)


SA Target Loaded 1911 /w Kart XACT fit barrel

• 45ACP
• Starline Brass new and once fired
• Zero 185JHP
• OAL 1.995-1.205 
• Crimp 0.469-0.470 measured at end of brass
• Charge 4.3gr BE

• 729FPS average after 35 rounds
    • ES 78
    • STD DEV 29.8

• Extraction varies, it'll shoot 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock with it ejecting far(5-8' or into my jacket's hoodie) and close(like a cute small hop out of the ejector!)

• Iron sights

When reloading I spot check quite a bit and charge varies 0.06gr from 4.3gr
Reloading runs smooth

Thoughts?


Last edited by MkFiji on Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added crimp)

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Post by DA/SA Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:43 am

Those seem like some pretty hot loads.
5-8 feet ejection indicates that as well.
Which weight recoil spring are you using?
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Post by chiz1180 Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:11 am

What are you doing for your crimp?

You want as much recoil spring as you can while maintaining proper function (ejection, feeding, and lock back). It would be my recommendation to not have multiple loads, keep it simple.
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Post by BE Mike Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:54 am

Do you have a slide mounted scope? If so, what brand?
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Post by PhotoEscape Sun Mar 17, 2024 9:03 am

MkFiji wrote:
• 45ACP
• Starline Brass new and once fired
• Zero 185JHP
• OAL 1.995-1.205 measured at end of brass

• Charge 4.3gr BE

• 729FPS average after 35 rounds
    • ES 78
    • STD DEV 29.8

• Extraction varies, it'll shoot 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock with it ejecting far(5-8' or into my jacket's hoodie) and close(like a cute small hop out of the ejector!)

Thoughts?
I suggest researching what is causing and eliminating difference in OAL.  IMO this is the source of erratic extraction and quite a big spread in ES / SD.  As a test, you can measure and group your ammo by OAL, and then fire them in a groups.

AP
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Post by MkFiji Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:32 am

DA/SA wrote:Those seem like some pretty hot loads.
5-8 feet ejection indicates that as well.
Which weight recoil spring are you using?

I'll get back to you on that, it's a stock spring

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Post by MkFiji Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:33 am

chiz1180 wrote:What are you doing for your crimp?

You want as much recoil spring as you can while maintaining proper function (ejection, feeding, and lock back). It would be my recommendation to not have multiple loads, keep it simple.
Crimp is 0.469-0.470, added to first post

I was leaning to one load until I started working my load up and saw a difference.  Yeah, I could always just learn to shoot one load

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Post by MkFiji Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:40 am

BE Mike wrote:Do you have a slide mounted scope? If so, what brand?

Iron sights

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Post by MkFiji Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:41 am

PhotoEscape wrote:
MkFiji wrote:
• 45ACP
• Starline Brass new and once fired
• Zero 185JHP
• OAL 1.995-1.205 measured at end of brass

• Charge 4.3gr BE

• 729FPS average after 35 rounds
    • ES 78
    • STD DEV 29.8

• Extraction varies, it'll shoot 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock with it ejecting far(5-8' or into my jacket's hoodie) and close(like a cute small hop out of the ejector!)

Thoughts?
I suggest researching what is causing and eliminating difference in OAL.  IMO this is the source of erratic extraction and quite a big spread in ES / SD.  As a test, you can measure and group your ammo by OAL, and then fire them in a groups.

AP

I just sorted them out and am heading to the range now! Thanks!

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Post by SingleActionAndrew Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:30 pm

MkFiji wrote:Extraction varies, it'll shoot 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock with it ejecting far(5-8' or into my jacket's hoodie) and close(like a cute small hop out of the ejector!)

This is interesting. Ejection distance varying so much would I think indicate inconsistencies potentially with charge weight or your grip on the pistol. A less than perfect extractor profile & fit could explain the difference in ejection direction and that's fine as long as it functions, but it's strange that some cases "hop out" and others go 8 feet.
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Post by BE Mike Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:06 pm

Since you already make a separate load for the short line, my suggestion is to back off your short line loads to less than 4 grains of Alliant Bullseye. I would also want to use a 16 pound (standard) recoil spring. I have a Springfield Armory Match Trophy. It has a 16 or 18 pound recoil spring. It has a stock barrel and a fitted barrel bushing. It functions fine with 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye under a Star 185 grain swaged lead swc bullet. You may want to ladder down your short line loads to see what works for your pistol.
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Post by Cmysix Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:46 pm

Your "main spring" or hammer spring has as much to do with recoil as does the recoil spring  STOCK 1911's as designed were 23 pound main spring And a 16 pound recoil spring, I have been using a 21 pound main and 15 pound recoil for my USPSA and IDPA shooting, works well IMHO. I have put a 19 main and a 14 recoil in my "bullseye" guns also seems to work well. I believe you have to adjust both springs for proper balance, but as I have said before I don't know nothing.
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Post by MkFiji Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:56 am

BE Mike wrote:Since you already make a separate load for the short line, my suggestion is to back off your short line loads to less than 4 grains of Alliant Bullseye. I would also want to use a 16 pound (standard) recoil spring. I have a Springfield Armory Match Trophy. It has a 16 or 18 pound recoil spring. It has a stock barrel and a fitted barrel bushing. It functions fine with 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye under a Star 185 grain swaged lead swc bullet. You may want to ladder down your short line loads to see what works for your pistol.

I've tried loads from 3.8gr-4.7gr

Between 3.8 and 4.1 my gun will fail to lock back when empty at times.  My shots with those lower loads and 4.2gr are also less accurate.  

I have some Zero 185 SWC and SWCHP bullets, I'll def try some lower loads with those.

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Post by MkFiji Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:59 am

SingleActionAndrew wrote:
MkFiji wrote:Extraction varies, it'll shoot 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock with it ejecting far(5-8' or into my jacket's hoodie) and close(like a cute small hop out of the ejector!)

This is interesting. Ejection distance varying so much would I think indicate inconsistencies potentially with charge weight or your grip on the pistol. A less than perfect extractor profile & fit could explain the difference in ejection direction and that's fine as long as it functions, but it's strange that some cases "hop out" and others go 8 feet.

Yeah, something must've happened while I was reloading this set.  It's unfortunate I reloaded 400 rounds of 4.3gr and have these inconsistencies.  I sorted a box out by OAL.  You can see the variation in my photo. I think I need to clean my dies or something

45 ACP lighter loads feel wild /w higher muzzle flip Oal_va10

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Post by MkFiji Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:10 am

When I went to the range Sunday I got my first Squib!

The 1.997 is really 1.197, 1.998 is 1.198, etc.

Oddly enough it was one of the 1.198" rounds that turned into a squib.  I didn't notice it fire when I shot.  I only saw that nothing happened and that it was incredibly difficult to rack the slide back.  When I finally racked the slide back I imagine the case fell and I tried a new magazine but none of them would lock up.  Took it home and found this.  Glad it was easy to tap out

45 ACP lighter loads feel wild /w higher muzzle flip Squib10


This is a big bummer as I doubt almost all my reloads for this batch now. I want to use them EIC this Saturday too! Maybe if I use my set OAL of 1.200, check crimp, and primer depth... I only need 30 rounds for the short line anyways, right?

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Post by james r chapman Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:57 am

Might also try .463 crimp. Certainly won’t hurt anything and often tighter will help. 
Are you using separate seating and crimping dies?

Do your measurements from base to shoulder, not oal for better consistency.

Might need to change the profile of your seating die.

Loose cases sometimes allow the seating die to suck the bullet back with sticky lube, clean it.

Just suggestions,
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Post by james r chapman Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:03 am

Is that the bullet in leade of barrel?

Maybe recoil drove bullet forward in magazine and the slide forced it into barrel when chambered. When you pulled the slide back it pulled the cartridge apart.

More crimp.
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Post by Cmysix Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:50 am

MkFiji wrote:When I went to the range Sunday I got my first Squib!

The 1.997 is really 1.197, 1.998 is 1.198, etc.

Oddly enough it was one of the 1.198" rounds that turned into a squib.  I didn't notice it fire when I shot.  I only saw that nothing happened and that it was incredibly difficult to rack the slide back.  When I finally racked the slide back I imagine the case fell and I tried a new magazine but none of them would lock up.  Took it home and found this.  Glad it was easy to tap out

45 ACP lighter loads feel wild /w higher muzzle flip Squib10


This is a big bummer as I doubt almost all my reloads for this batch now. I want to use them EIC this Saturday too! Maybe if I use my set OAL of 1.200, check crimp, and primer depth... I only need 30 rounds for the short line anyways, right?


My shooting bag contains various diameters of brass rod for just such an occurrence
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Post by chiz1180 Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:54 am

Seeing as you are experiencing erratic velocity and have had a squib, it may be a good time to revaluate your loading process. How do you check your powder charge, how often do you inspect/clean your dies, are your dies set up in the press correctly, do you ever have potential to short stroke your press? 

This is all elementary reloading advice but worth checking. Squibs are not a good thing and can easily become dangerous. Honestly it is not a comfortable feeling being next to someone on the line who gets a squib. Also doesn't lend to shooting good scores either. Start back at step 1 in the process and look for points where error can occur and remediate the problem.
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Post by Centerline Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:28 am

Also take a look at cleaning process. Make sure everything is completely dry before reloading. If you are using wet cleaning, moisture can be trapped in primer pockets. I always remove primers before wet tumbling so that I'm not removing a wet primer just before inserting a new one.

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Post by spursnguns Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:55 pm

chiz1180 wrote:Seeing as you are experiencing erratic velocity and have had a squib, it may be a good time to revaluate your loading process. How do you check your powder charge, how often do you inspect/clean your dies, are your dies set up in the press correctly, do you ever have potential to short stroke your press? 

This is all elementary reloading advice but worth checking. Squibs are not a good thing and can easily become dangerous. Honestly it is not a comfortable feeling being next to someone on the line who gets a squib. Also doesn't lend to shooting good scores either. Start back at step 1 in the process and look for points where error can occur and remediate the problem.

Hello,

Good advice.  When you get your loading process refined (for lack of a better word), look at your shooting technique.  I would guess your grip is varying in style and/or firmness on the short line.

Jim
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Post by 243winxb Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:13 pm

 Reevaluate  your loading process  


No powder in 1, double charge in the next.  KABOOM. 


Look into each case, at the powder level, before seating a bullet.


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45acpkaboom.144/full
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Post by funski Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:02 pm

On the subject of recoil and main springs. I am using 200grn. acme coated and 3.8 N310 in my iron sights 1911.  Any suggestions for spring weights would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Jim

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Post by Wobbley Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:56 pm

Try 12 pounds recoil 19 pound mainspring.  Spring weight is dependent on how the gun is setup and fit.  If the gun behaves normally it is NOT oversprung. If it beats you to death it Could be undersprung.  Which is why you start high then go to low.
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Post by MkFiji Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:45 pm

james r chapman wrote:Is that the bullet in leade of barrel?

Maybe recoil drove bullet forward in magazine and the slide forced it into barrel when chambered. When you pulled the slide back it pulled the cartridge apart.

More crimp.

Yes, it never fired, the slide never returned forward.  I believe it was a failure to crimp the case.  Is this still considered a squib?

I probably forgot to remove the case when I ran into an issue in



For an update, I sorted all my ammo by OAL and then by weight.  Then I measured crimp and plunked them all.  Shot a match last week and did pretty well with it, nothing felt off in any of my strings, it was really pleasant! Wish I used my chrono though to see ES and SD.


Lesson for me is that I should be more diligent in workflow for when I am not able to lower the press all the way and that I should figure a way to plunk my ammo in mass.  I'd do it for a match but for practice it seems like a lot of work.  I use a 750XL for those wondering

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