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PPU brass question

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Post by Eindecker Sat Apr 13, 2024 5:39 am

Seen PPU 38 special WADCUTTER brass for sale.  I emailed the vender and PPU USA customer support, and neither source could give any measurement proof of it being actual wadcutter brass or different from the regular 38 special brass they sell. 

Can anyone here share any knowledge of this stuff?

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Post by Wobbley Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:54 pm

See my post here….

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t21895-38-special-wadcutter-questions-die-set-preferred-brass?highlight=Wadcutter#188077

ive measured a bunch of brass and I’ve never found “Wadcutter” brass to be anything but 38 Special brass but never “+P” brass. It is VERY UNLIKELY that PPU or anybody make special brass for,wadcutter. They will likely make ALL of their 38 Special ”standard” brass suitable, but it’s not a special run.
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Post by PhotoEscape Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:41 pm

Sorry, Ashley!  It was wrong data then and it is wrong now IMO!  There is brass specifically made for 38 WC even these days (Fiocchi), and Starline isn't suitable for 38WC unless swaging of the base is acceptable.  Current Remington 38SPL brass has tapering starting too high even in its 38WC ammo. 

I have never checked/measured 38WC PPU brass.  Easiest way to check is with 0.355 plug or 9mm drill bit.

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Post by Wobbley Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:19 pm

Well, we disagree! The table list two Remington instances of “ brass from Wadcutter Remington ammo. One was in green and yellow boxed current and one was from boxed ammo made in the old days in green boxes with rubber stamped ammo nomenclature on the end flaps. This older stuff dates from the late 1960s early 1970s. The measurements are identical. Just because one European manufacturer made some brass with “Wadcutter” on it DOES NOT MEAN that every other maker made special “wadcutter brass” in 38 special. This would be potential trouble if some non-wadcutter brass got in the loading machine.

Maintaining the myth that 38 Wadcutter ammo was loaded in “Special Wadcutter” brass is not helpful, especially today in that the ammo companies no longer make 38 Wadcutter ammo in the quantities to justify making “special brass” (which I don’t believe they ever did).


So, sorry but you’re mistaken. My assessment stands.
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Post by KBarth Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:37 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:Sorry, Ashley!  It was wrong data then and it is wrong now IMO!  There is brass specifically made for 38 WC even these days (Fiocchi), and Starline isn't suitable for 38WC unless swaging of the base is acceptable.  Current Remington 38SPL brass has tapering starting too high even in its 38WC ammo. 

I have never checked/measured 38WC PPU brass.  Easiest way to check is with 0.355 plug or 9mm drill bit.

AP
You are right Alex, especially regarding starline.  Starline brass ID is tapered and would swage the base of the bullet.  I have cut away several pieces of starline brass and the inside taper of the brass is obvious.  It's good stuff for loading SWC though
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Post by PhotoEscape Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:45 pm

Well, yes, we disagree.  And you are choosing to ignore pictures that I posted in prior threads showing differences in Remington brass alone.  I can post same for other head stamps.  Just the other day I was checking Winchester cases.  I didn't measure, but rather was checking depth of the start of the internal taping with 0.355" plug.  And it was noticeable different.  The fact that manufacturers don't mark 38 brass with "Wadcutter" doesn't disqualify one or another lot of 38 SPL cases from being able to accept 38 WC projectiles.  Measurements are!  And that is the point.  Your measurements based on 3-4 samples statistically inaccurate, as most definitely you measured cases from the same lot. 

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Post by chiz1180 Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:53 pm

I agree that starline and old Remington brass have slightly different internal case dimensions. However, I have yet to be able to prove any realistic difference on target or with leading in either my model 14 or my 38spl 1911. I am not shooting the Remington bullets that everyone seems to claim allowed them to clean the long line with every time though, just shooting Hornady, Zero or Speer. 

If the brass makes any difference on target, it is likely small enough to not matter if you are shooting from the hand rather than the ransom rest.

OP if the price is right with you probably doesn't hurt, but likely won't be major difference.
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Post by Wobbley Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:18 am

I’m not ignoring your photos. I disagree with your method making determination of internal case dimensions. You propose to use a pin gauge to determine the length of the cylindrical portion of the case wall. Question then—does your pin have a chamfer on the ends and does that affect the measurement? Is that effect consistent? Get data…don’t just assume anything.

As for my selection in brass, only those that had fewer than 5 samples to measure. One thing I did find was that the dimensions were consistent in any given lot and lot to lot variances were very consistent. I had what I had to work with and I tried to use stuff with known history as opposed to what some brass seller asserted as “Wadcutter brass”.

Here is my raw data. Now show me your real data. And I want to see data from ammo of all vintages with KNOWN provenance.

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Post by PhotoEscape Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:37 am

Wobbley wrote:I’m not ignoring your photos.  I disagree with your method making determination of internal case dimensions.  You propose to use a pin gauge to determine the length of the cylindrical portion of the case wall.  Question then—does your pin have a chamfer on the ends and does that affect the measurement? Is that effect consistent?   Get data…don’t just assume anything.  

As for my selection in brass, only those that had fewer than 5 samples to measure.  One thing I did find was that the dimensions were consistent in any given lot and lot to lot variances were very consistent.  I had what I had to work with and I tried to use stuff with known history as opposed to what some brass seller asserted as “Wadcutter brass”.  

Here is my raw data.  Now show me your real data.  And I want to see data from ammo of all vintages with KNOWN provenance.
OP,
I am very sorry for this exchange with Ashley, - I had no intention to hijack your post.

Ashley,
One who understands how to measure and how to interpret measurements can use a nail, drill bit, piece of rod, etc. of proper diameter (for the sake of discussion - "proper diameter" is equal to OD of the bullet) to make determination.  If one can insert same gauge in one case to "this depth", and to "less then this depth" in second case, and then compare both to the length of the bullet being used, that will provide sufficient point of reference on usability of either case.  There is no need for Comparator, special micrometers or sophisticated measuring devices, IMHO.

For the record - I use standard pin gauges that I bring from the machine shop home when I need them.

And here is real data:

PPU brass question 000510
PPU brass question K38_po10

Two different bullets with different OD/OAL, same Fiocchi WADCUTTER cases used in both.  Both shot at 50Y from Barrel Tester.  For comparison testing of latest Remington Retail ammo in my possession and another load of mine with different DEWC bullet was also done under same conditions on same days.  I am not going to post those cards - too embarrassing.

Chris,
We test ammo eliminating ourselves from equation, so we know what it can do from our firearm.  If ammo can do what you see i.e. on these pictures, we then strive to repeat the same as best as we can.  You can do it better than I, some can do it better than you.

As Colonel Cooper said: "...a skilled marksman, wields a subpar rifle. Despite the weapon’s limitations, he manages to inflict significant harm. His precision and expertise compensate for the rifle’s deficiencies, allowing him to achieve remarkable results..."  Now, let imaging that we have skilled marksman, equipped with known good weapon and known good ammo.


Once again, OP, I am sorry for getting off of the rail.  I will not post any more on this thread.


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Post by messenger Mon Apr 15, 2024 4:42 pm

KBarth wrote:
PhotoEscape wrote:Sorry, Ashley!  It was wrong data then and it is wrong now IMO!  There is brass specifically made for 38 WC even these days (Fiocchi), and Starline isn't suitable for 38WC unless swaging of the base is acceptable.  Current Remington 38SPL brass has tapering starting too high even in its 38WC ammo. 

I have never checked/measured 38WC PPU brass.  Easiest way to check is with 0.355 plug or 9mm drill bit.

AP
You are right Alex, especially regarding starline.  Starline brass ID is tapered and would swage the base of the bullet.  I have cut away several pieces of starline brass and the inside taper of the brass is obvious.  It's good stuff for loading SWC though

I guess we are all going to have disagreements here. The most accurate commercial wad cutter ammo I have ever shot was Georgia arms. They load they're wadcutters in StarLine brass. I don't know anything taper or wall thickness but it shoots very accurately in my 52-2.

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Post by chiz1180 Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:28 pm

AP,

I do in fact test my ammo, but I do not sacrifice excellent for perfection. When I test ammo it is my goal to have a ammo that is groups under 3" for more than 30 shots, with the center of that bell curve being the x ring.  Starline vs R-P brass has not significantly moved the needle of group size in my testing. Further more when the rubber meets the road in an actual match, I have seen virtually no difference in an agg score using either make of brass. 

Theoretically under ideal conditions, a very small difference may be there, but not enough to matter under the conditions I typically shoot.
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Post by messenger Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:51 pm

I have heard that R-P brass is very good for wad cutters.

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