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Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Oleg G 8/27/2017, 9:39 am
My last three matches have demonstrated a steady increase in scores, each bringing a personal best. Culminating with yesterday's match (Palmyra Dutchman 2700) bringing my first ever Sharpshooter match score - 2305!!! 
This was in no small part due to shooting with terrific folks to my left and right. Many thanks to Ron and Jeff and others!
I just re-read what I wrote in my Shooter's notebook this morning and decided to post it here as a request for help and advice:
I have been putting a lot of time into Dry Fire training. Big benefits to slow fire – now my .22 and .45 scores are on par in slow fire in matches (80 - 86). Bringing up the .45 slow fire scores raised the overall scores.
My timed fire .45 match scores are almost, if not completely on par with with .22 timed fire scores.
The problem now is with Rapid Fire.
In .22, my match Rapid Fire scores are actually slightly higher that the Timed Fire Score (94 – 96 RF vs 90 – 93 TF). Why? I don’t think, I just shoot. Meaning that I trust my training and don’t try to make the shots too pretty. (Have read this before many times, now am experiencing it myself.)
In .45 my match Rapid Fire scores are much, much lower than Timed Fire scores with wide swings (70 – 85 RF vs. 90 – 92 TF). What am I doing wrong? Seems that I do not “keep the trigger moving” enough in RF. This looks to be a combination of stronger recoil and a stiffer trigger, as compared to .22.
Just read this on the Bullseye Facebook page: “The AMU guys say there is no such thing as timed-fire and shoot both timed- and rapid-fire identically.” Given the issues I just described, the conclusion is obvious – I need to focus exclusively on the RF portion of Sustained Fire. This will help both the .22 and the .45 scores.
Question is – what specific technique I can use to practice RF in dry fire mode?
This was in no small part due to shooting with terrific folks to my left and right. Many thanks to Ron and Jeff and others!
I just re-read what I wrote in my Shooter's notebook this morning and decided to post it here as a request for help and advice:
I have been putting a lot of time into Dry Fire training. Big benefits to slow fire – now my .22 and .45 scores are on par in slow fire in matches (80 - 86). Bringing up the .45 slow fire scores raised the overall scores.
My timed fire .45 match scores are almost, if not completely on par with with .22 timed fire scores.
The problem now is with Rapid Fire.
In .22, my match Rapid Fire scores are actually slightly higher that the Timed Fire Score (94 – 96 RF vs 90 – 93 TF). Why? I don’t think, I just shoot. Meaning that I trust my training and don’t try to make the shots too pretty. (Have read this before many times, now am experiencing it myself.)
In .45 my match Rapid Fire scores are much, much lower than Timed Fire scores with wide swings (70 – 85 RF vs. 90 – 92 TF). What am I doing wrong? Seems that I do not “keep the trigger moving” enough in RF. This looks to be a combination of stronger recoil and a stiffer trigger, as compared to .22.
Just read this on the Bullseye Facebook page: “The AMU guys say there is no such thing as timed-fire and shoot both timed- and rapid-fire identically.” Given the issues I just described, the conclusion is obvious – I need to focus exclusively on the RF portion of Sustained Fire. This will help both the .22 and the .45 scores.
Question is – what specific technique I can use to practice RF in dry fire mode?
Oleg G- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Chris Miceli 8/27/2017, 11:23 am
the 1,2,3 shot drills will help, I believe someone here has tied a string onto their slide and pulled it back with the non firing hand to cycle the gun.
Chris Miceli- Posts : 2715
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by CR10X 8/27/2017, 2:50 pm
Not that I'm the best short line shooter around (and I've spent a lot of time, talking to a lot of shooters about how they shoot the short line) but here is another perspective from how I had to approach the issue. One thing I tell people when asked about better better at rapid fire is this. If you want to improve your rapid fire scores get better at the long line.
One of the biggest issues with TF / RF for most shooters is not having a good trigger process. The actual act of operating the trigger should take the same amount of time at the short line as at the long line. The only difference (for me) is that I'm waiting a little more for the wobble to get to its smallest at the long line. At the short line, if the trigger is smooth and automatic based on the visual input, the wobble is not really a big concern. Snatching, jerking and forcing the trigger will lose many more points that the wobble will. Focus on keeping the gun aligned (sight alignment, not sight picture). Which is one of the reasons open sight training actually helped me on the short line.
As Grayson Palmer once said to me when we are taking about the short line (and he is a pretty dang good short line shooter): "There are only 5 things to remember for the short line. "Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, and Trigger before the target turns."
Snatching off the shot at the short line trying to catch the dot is not the best way. So, train at the long line for smooth, continuous trigger operation, and transfer that 5 times each string to the short line. Smooth and relaxed. The shot will be better than it looks if the trigger keeps moving smoothly. Forcing it generally disturbs the orientation of the gun even more.
As I've pointed out before, it's 4 times easier to shoot a 10 at the short line.
CR
One of the biggest issues with TF / RF for most shooters is not having a good trigger process. The actual act of operating the trigger should take the same amount of time at the short line as at the long line. The only difference (for me) is that I'm waiting a little more for the wobble to get to its smallest at the long line. At the short line, if the trigger is smooth and automatic based on the visual input, the wobble is not really a big concern. Snatching, jerking and forcing the trigger will lose many more points that the wobble will. Focus on keeping the gun aligned (sight alignment, not sight picture). Which is one of the reasons open sight training actually helped me on the short line.
As Grayson Palmer once said to me when we are taking about the short line (and he is a pretty dang good short line shooter): "There are only 5 things to remember for the short line. "Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, and Trigger before the target turns."
Snatching off the shot at the short line trying to catch the dot is not the best way. So, train at the long line for smooth, continuous trigger operation, and transfer that 5 times each string to the short line. Smooth and relaxed. The shot will be better than it looks if the trigger keeps moving smoothly. Forcing it generally disturbs the orientation of the gun even more.
As I've pointed out before, it's 4 times easier to shoot a 10 at the short line.
CR
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Oleg G 8/27/2017, 2:57 pm
Cecil, thanks for your advice. If I understand your words correctly (and I do try), the stiffer trigger of the .45 emphasizes imperfections in my trigger technique, as compared with the .22, where the lighter trigger is more forgiving?
Oleg G- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Chris Miceli 8/27/2017, 3:07 pm
I feel the opposite. I'll take heavier trigger over a light one anydayOleg G wrote:Cecil, thanks for your advice. If I understand your words correctly (and I do try), the stiffer trigger of the .45 emphasizes imperfections in my trigger technique, as compared with the .22, where the lighter trigger is more forgiving?
Chris Miceli- Posts : 2715
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by CR10X 8/27/2017, 6:21 pm
It's partially the trigger weight, but it's also the trigger feel. In general, I found that to shoot the .45 well, I needed to have a good consistent, even grip firm enough to hold the gun and have something to press the trigger back into (the words are hard here, but hopefully we can understand).
With a .22 we can get by with a lighter grip (mostly due to the lesser recoil and lighter weight); and can still get back down of the target for the short line. And we get used to just letting the .22 "fall" back into the target in sustained fire and have time to consciously manipulate the trigger.
BUT, for the .45, we need to drive the gun back to the center with purpose the trigger process has already started. Otherwise, we get behind (timewise) and start jerking the trigger and trying to pick off the shot. This takes a firmer grip and good trigger control (and probably why Chris is to the point of preferring a heavier trigger to a lighter one at this point).
Another thing to remember is that you can shoot great .22 scores holding and operating the trigger like you were shooting a .45; but you can't shoot a .45 (gun or even trigger weight) with a .22 grip and trigger process.
But this does not fly in the face of my earlier recommendations to get a .22 and shoot it until you have well formed basics of grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment, etc. It's just that when we start with the .45, (my opinion - strongly held) we build on that foundation and add to it. More grip pressure, better trigger control, driving the gun to the center, etc.
Attaining each level of technique and experience is just the starting point for getting to the next level, as long as there is a good foundation.
Hope this does not muddy the water too much. Good luck and keep looking for your own solution.
CR
With a .22 we can get by with a lighter grip (mostly due to the lesser recoil and lighter weight); and can still get back down of the target for the short line. And we get used to just letting the .22 "fall" back into the target in sustained fire and have time to consciously manipulate the trigger.
BUT, for the .45, we need to drive the gun back to the center with purpose the trigger process has already started. Otherwise, we get behind (timewise) and start jerking the trigger and trying to pick off the shot. This takes a firmer grip and good trigger control (and probably why Chris is to the point of preferring a heavier trigger to a lighter one at this point).
Another thing to remember is that you can shoot great .22 scores holding and operating the trigger like you were shooting a .45; but you can't shoot a .45 (gun or even trigger weight) with a .22 grip and trigger process.
But this does not fly in the face of my earlier recommendations to get a .22 and shoot it until you have well formed basics of grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment, etc. It's just that when we start with the .45, (my opinion - strongly held) we build on that foundation and add to it. More grip pressure, better trigger control, driving the gun to the center, etc.
Attaining each level of technique and experience is just the starting point for getting to the next level, as long as there is a good foundation.
Hope this does not muddy the water too much. Good luck and keep looking for your own solution.
CR
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Chris Miceli 8/27/2017, 6:44 pm
I was thinking maybe a heavier trigger helps me to keep a firm grip even on the 22. I felt like I was getting in trouble with the 45 right after the 22 by using a lighter grip.CR10X wrote:It's partially the trigger weight, but it's also the trigger feel. In general, I found that to shoot the .45 well, I needed to have a good consistent, even grip firm enough to hold the gun and have something to press the trigger back into (the words are hard here, but hopefully we can understand).
With a .22 we can get by with a lighter grip (mostly due to the lesser recoil and lighter weight); and can still get back down of the target for the short line. And we get used to just letting the .22 "fall" back into the target in sustained fire and have time to consciously manipulate the trigger.
BUT, for the .45, we need to drive the gun back to the center with purpose the trigger process has already started. Otherwise, we get behind (timewise) and start jerking the trigger and trying to pick off the shot. This takes a firmer grip and good trigger control (and probably why Chris is to the point of preferring a heavier trigger to a lighter one at this point).
Another thing to remember is that you can shoot great .22 scores holding and operating the trigger like you were shooting a .45; but you can't shoot a .45 (gun or even trigger weight) with a .22 grip and trigger process.
But this does not fly in the face of my earlier recommendations to get a .22 and shoot it until you have well formed basics of grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment, etc. It's just that when we start with the .45, (my opinion - strongly held) we build on that foundation and add to it. More grip pressure, better trigger control, driving the gun to the center, etc.
Attaining each level of technique and experience is just the starting point for getting to the next level, as long as there is a good foundation.
Hope this does not muddy the water too much. Good luck and keep looking for your own solution.
CR
Chris Miceli- Posts : 2715
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Oleg G 8/27/2017, 9:47 pm
I think this helps me a lot. I am able to operate the trigger in the same, or very similar, fashion on the .22 and the .45 in slow and timed fire, hence equal scores. For the Rapid Fire, I feel like I don't have enough time (even though I do) and start picking off shots and jerking the trigger. Example: in yesterday's match, shooting .45 Rapid Fire, I felt fully in control and just let the shots happen for the first target. Result = 94-1X. On the second target, the last target of the entire 2700 match, I put pressure on myself to equal the previous target. Result = 70-0X with two misses. I shot at decent first string on that target but only fired 4 shots because I was slow. The second string completely fell apart and missed one shot.CR10X wrote: wrote:BUT, for the .45, we need to drive the gun back to the center with purpose the trigger process has already started. Otherwise, we get behind (timewise) and start jerking the trigger and trying to pick off the shot. This takes a firmer grip and good trigger control (and probably why Chris is to the point of preferring a heavier trigger to a lighter one at this point).
But still, in addition to live fire practice, what should I do in dry fire training (and I don't use practice and training interchangeably) to improve consistency in my Rapid Fire performance?
Oleg G- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by CR10X 8/28/2017, 5:19 am
For specific dry fire training, especially if you don't have access to a turning target machine, I have used:
Put appropriate sized black sticker on a blank wall in front of you. Make sure the gun is unloaded, no ammo anywhere, etc. etc. And make sure the wall does not have anything behind it that you do not want to hit with a round anyway. You know, TV, neighbors, cat, etc.
(1) Assume the firing position just like you are on the range at the short line. Breath as you would during the commands. Raise the gun into the target at your normal recoil position (where the gun winds up after recoil). Then start the firing process by really driving the gun back to your area of wobble on the target and begin the trigger process at the same time. After the hammer falls, drive the gun back to the wobble area again. No matter how little it moved. Then lower the gun and review what you saw. This is training on driving the gun back to the center of your wobble area.
Since we generally have a single action automatic and can't do the above 5 times without losing grip to re-cock, etc., we need to add something else to the mix to help so:
(2) This one takes a double action revolver. Get the same set up (but without a target) and make sure the gun is unloaded. Take your normal position and start dryfiring, but you will be doing this double action. The only thing we are looking at here is getting the grip and trigger control to keep the front sight in the notch and complete visual focus on the front sight for 5 repetitions. Just like shooting the short line double action only. Then lower the gun and rest for 20 seconds and do it again. Continue until tired or begin losing focus. (This will not take long in the beginning). This is for grip strength and trigger control / strength.
If you have access to a turning target machine, these are even better for dryfiring. But don't start with the turning target machine. Do some static training first, then add the machine.
Have fun.
Put appropriate sized black sticker on a blank wall in front of you. Make sure the gun is unloaded, no ammo anywhere, etc. etc. And make sure the wall does not have anything behind it that you do not want to hit with a round anyway. You know, TV, neighbors, cat, etc.
(1) Assume the firing position just like you are on the range at the short line. Breath as you would during the commands. Raise the gun into the target at your normal recoil position (where the gun winds up after recoil). Then start the firing process by really driving the gun back to your area of wobble on the target and begin the trigger process at the same time. After the hammer falls, drive the gun back to the wobble area again. No matter how little it moved. Then lower the gun and review what you saw. This is training on driving the gun back to the center of your wobble area.
Since we generally have a single action automatic and can't do the above 5 times without losing grip to re-cock, etc., we need to add something else to the mix to help so:
(2) This one takes a double action revolver. Get the same set up (but without a target) and make sure the gun is unloaded. Take your normal position and start dryfiring, but you will be doing this double action. The only thing we are looking at here is getting the grip and trigger control to keep the front sight in the notch and complete visual focus on the front sight for 5 repetitions. Just like shooting the short line double action only. Then lower the gun and rest for 20 seconds and do it again. Continue until tired or begin losing focus. (This will not take long in the beginning). This is for grip strength and trigger control / strength.
If you have access to a turning target machine, these are even better for dryfiring. But don't start with the turning target machine. Do some static training first, then add the machine.
Have fun.
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Oleg G 8/28/2017, 5:42 am
Cecil, thanks a lot. These exercises make a lot of sense to me and I will definitely include them into my training regimen.
The first one also reminded me about Ed Hall's article I read before:
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/ny2006exercise.html
As usual, many thanks to Ed for his writing.
The first one also reminded me about Ed Hall's article I read before:
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/ny2006exercise.html
As usual, many thanks to Ed for his writing.
Oleg G- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by rreid 8/28/2017, 8:35 am
I do what Cecil says in the number 2 item of his post, using the bullseye timer app on my phone. I'll do some 1 shot drills with my regular guns, then switch to the revolver for 2 shot drills and 5 shot strings of rapid.
rreid- Posts : 562
Join date : 2012-02-06
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Ed Hall 9/2/2017, 1:19 pm
Chris Miceli wrote:the 1,2,3 shot drills will help, I believe someone here has tied a string onto their slide and pulled it back with the non firing hand to cycle the gun.
Bullseye-L Forum: Dry Fire Methodology Thread
Ed Hall- Posts : 1051
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains -
Re: Help with a dry fire technique for Rapid Fire Training
by Oleg G 9/2/2017, 1:29 pm
Thanks a lot, Ed! Much appreciated.
Oleg G- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
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