Shot my first bullseye shoot tonight--- Help-- Smith 41 failure to eject

First topic message reminder :

Targets were 50 feet indoors. 98% of guys using Rugers with red dots. 22 caliber shoot.  Rapid and slow fire. Most shooters over 65. About 18 shooters. I shot a 230 score. Horrible. My new Smith and Wesson model 41 failed to eject spent rounds about 8 times out of 50 rounds. I was using cci standard velocity ammo. I was using a 2moa  leupold delta point pro red dot. .  Any suggestions? One guy suggest I put a recoil buffer in. Due I need new upgraded shell extractor? I liked this game. Thanks

Interesting, I would have guessed the bolt wasn't cycling all the way to the rear of the rising round. It looks like it was overrunning the brass instead, and friction was driving it forward, without the ability to rotate up and into the chamber. If the problem comes back, perhaps a slightly lighter recoil spring would help.

Did anyone mention the occasional limp wrist?

-TT- wrote:Interesting, I would have guessed the bolt wasn't cycling all the way to the rear of the rising round. It looks like it was overrunning the brass instead, and friction was driving it forward, without the ability to rotate up and into the chamber. If the problem comes back, perhaps a slightly lighter recoil spring would help.

I assume you're referring to the pictures I posted. Sorry, wasn't clear about the FTF error that damaged those rounds. The slide would pick up and start to chamber a round normally, and the very sharp edge would then get stuck on the NEXT round below that one in the magazine. So it would hang up with a partially chambered (undamaged) round, with that edge shearing a groove and getting stuck in the next round. Rounding/polishing that edge let it slide over the next round in the magazine without getting stuck. From the factory that edge was pretty sharp.

Makes sense, and definitely interesting that edge was left unfinished.

The bolt needs to be oiled on the bottom where the hammer makes contact. The quick easy way is to drop a little oil on the first round in the magazine. The bolt grabs a tiny bit of oil every magazine. The other method is almost as quick and does the same thing. Drop a little oil on the bottom of the bolt either thru the magazine or when slide is extended. If it was a 1911 with its exposed hammer you would be keeping it wet. There are some great lubricants out there that will stay in place a long time but not forever. Dropping a little oil on the first round is not magic but it works. Once you understand what you are actually putting oil on it makes sense to put the oil where it is supposed to go. Just my .02. I drag this picture of the bolt out just about every year when the discussion comes around this way again.

Len

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I'd try a Wolff gun spring calibration pak if you're short on patience.
It makes no sense to me to add a buffer to a gun that was not designed around one & having ejection problems already.,,,but first     try different ammo to break it in.
Match night is time to shoot matches, practice/training nights are the time to work out issues.
JMO

+1 on lighter spring.    I have a 1 year old S&W model 41. Even after 1000+ rounds it still takes a lighter spring to function 100% of the time.
Doug

LenV wrote:The bolt needs to be oiled on the bottom where the hammer makes contact. The quick easy way is to drop a little oil on the first round in the magazine. The bolt grabs a tiny bit of oil every magazine. The other method is almost as quick and does the same thing. Drop a little oil on the bottom of the bolt either thru the magazine or when slide is extended. If it was a 1911 with its exposed hammer you would be keeping it wet. There are some great lubricants out there that will stay in place a long time but not forever. Dropping a little oil on the first round is not magic but it works. Once you understand what you are actually putting oil on it makes sense to put the oil where it is supposed to go. Just my .02. I drag this picture of the bolt out just about every year when the discussion comes around this way again.

Len

Len, is my memory correct that Jerry Keefer used to polish that surface, on the bottom of the bolt?  I think he polished everything, and that was one of the areas he worked on.  

If one follows your second suggestion, and goes to the range with that surface lubricated, should the lubrication last for a day of shooting, or would you also put a drop of oil on the first round, in addition to starting off with that surface lubricated?  I guess this depends on the quality of the lubricant.

Thank you - I knew about the drop of oil, but until reading what you posted, I didn't realize the reason for WHY to do this.

My experience, over many years, with my inherited 41s from the 1970s. May not apply to current production, but here is my 2 cents.
1) Only ammo that really works in my 41s is CCI 0032 (Plastic 100 rnd box) - flawless performance and 1" group @ 50 yds in a RR;
2) 0035 (paper 50 rnd box). A few FTE in 2 boxes of 50 rnds. 2" group @ 50 yds. Fine for practice and more affordable. Wouldn't use in a 2700.
3) Lapua Pistol Match (?) was the only other ammo that was slightly better at 50yds in a RR. Great ammo, but materially more expensive.
4) Just tried a brick of Agulia Super Match. It is looking favorable -- seems similar to CCI 0035, will test out a case this winter. More affordable than 0035 @ $185 from my local FFL.

The Volquartsen extractor solved an FTE problem I was having with my older 41s and removing the buffer materially improved the performance of Agulia Super Match re FTE.

Hope one or more of these tips helps your shooting.

Try the plop test, if it fails polish the chamber. It will take care of your problems. Polish the chamber until the plop test works good.

Something else you can try - I used to use CCI SV all the time, with hardly any issues, and then I got a case that didn't work so well.  I eventually shot much of it, but someone here suggested wiping off the rounds before loading them in the magazine.  I spread them on a towel, covered them, then rolled them back and forth for a while.  This helped quite a bit.

I called CCI, and they asked me to send them my remaining ammo.  After a long time, and shooting a LOT of it, the conclusion seemed to be that it was likely because of the material they use to coat the rounds with.  They replaced my ammo, but at that time I was then shooting my Nelson - rounds got "stuck" in the chamber.  If I fired again, they usually went off.  That issue it turns out was likely/maybe due to something not machined properly in the chamber area.  So, the Nelson went back, was evaluated, and they sent me a new kit to replace it.


With all these guns, I tried the above mentioned "plop test", and the rounds dropped easily into the chamber when the gun was clean - but when I got home, not so.  After 10 or 15 rounds the rounds started to "stick" in the chamber.   I won't know for a few more weeks if this is now corrected.

For the previous CCI ammo, I had the same issue in my 41 and my High Standard, so I'm thoroughly confused.  I put in all new parts, cleaned the chamber and related areas, installed the new Valquartsen extractor, and I think everything is ready - but I won't be back home for another ten days.


The 41 is simple to tear down.  If this starts happening at the range, take it apart and try the plop test right there.  If the round doesn't drop in, clean the chamber, re-assemble, and see if this fixes it - and how long it stays "fixed".  People have told me to use a slightly oversize brush to clean the chamber - bend it at 90 degrees, so it only goes "in" as deep as the chamber.  

(I also took my 41 to my local gunsmith who cleaned, polished, lubricated it, with all my new parts still inside it.  When I went to the range, the gun worked perfectly, for a couple of boxes of ammo.  He re-assembled it with the stock recoil spring.  They're available now from S&W, for a very low cost.  If all else fails, maybe you could do all of the above too.)

Every year around this time all kinds of 22 malfunctions crop up. Follow the advice of Len and Jimmy. Try some different ammo. Pop for a couple boxes of good stuff even. I’ve found CCI to be about the worst cold weather ammo.
JKR

I may have said this elsewhere on the site, but I have found with my 41s that there is a major difference between CCI SV 0032 (plastic box) and CCI SV 0035 (paper box). 0032 0 - 1 FTE per 100 round box. 0035 Almost every time at least 1 FTE problem per box( 50 rounds). Accuracy in a RR this past August 1" group @ 50 yds with 0032 vs 2" group @ 50 yds with 0035.
I find that putting a generous drop of good oil on the first round in the magazine seems to really help.
I'm shooting some Aguila super match and found that removing the after market buffer reduced my FTE problems.