Help with .45 reload

New to reloading .45 ACP. I am having a problem with the bullets being able to be turned in the case, even after a crimp.

Basics of my setup: Lee turret press, Photoescape PTU, loading 4.0 gr. Bullseye with 200 gr. Brazos swc Bullets. I have the ptu set to where it just starts to bevel the case. I run aol at 1.24 and crimp at .65. Just made up 9 and noticed the on 3 the Bullets could be rotated by hand (easily). I tried tightening the crimp, and went as low as .60-just swajed  the lead, and the bullet still turned in the case.

Thanks for any advice.

Joe

hi Joe,
I think you miss typed on the crimp OD - should be .465" and .460" according to your post.
I would measure the OD of the bullets and PTU to make sure they are the correct diameters.
Are you sure you resized the case?
Wes

And make sure your sizing die is a .45 ACP (not .45 Colt / Long Colt) die and is set properly.

CR

Sorry, it was late. You are absolutely correct. It is .460

It is a Lee final sizing die in .45 acp. It just touches the shell holder with ram at full extension.

OK, I'm a little confused since I'm not familiar with a "final" sizing die for .45 ACP.  

There are "factory crimp" dies for final sizing of loaded rounds which generally only smooth out the upper portion of the cartridge.
 
The standard sizing dies are different and resize the case almost to the base.

Anyway, if the die is correct and set as you describe, then either the bullets are undersize or your expander is oversized as mentioned above.

Also, check see that you have a taper crimp die and and not a roll crimp die.  

Hope this helps. 

cR

Joe,

Check your rounds after you seated bullet and before you crimp them.  If bullets do not rotate then you have issue with your last step - crimping / final sizing.  In general I recommend not to use Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) for both sizing and crimping, but rather use a taper crimp die to crimp your round.  If you then having difficulties feeding ammo in your pistol, I suggest adding FCD and setting it up the way that it only goes down to size area that affects feeding. 

This tool would help determining if you need to use FCD - https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1574-05

AP

Lee FCD aren't dimensioned right. With thick brass like Federal, they can swage the bullet as it sits in the case. Prove it? Measure the diameter, seat it, crimp it, pull it and re measure.

Those also lead badly. Good luck

It is a Lee carbide factory crimp die. I ran a few today and agree that it must be the crimp die. I will look into just a crimp die ( taper not roll ) any brands recommended? 

Interesting that you said that the Lee fcd dies lead to excess leading. I had been having problems with my .38 hbwc leading. I just started with the Photoescape PTU (for the .38) and they load so much better!

Thanks for everyone’s help

Thank you for the plug, Joe!

I am a fan of Redding Micro-Adjustable Taper crimp die:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012442450

Regular Lee or Redding Taper crimp dies are good as well

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016834814

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020562783

AP

CR10X wrote:OK, I'm a little confused since I'm not familiar with a "final" sizing die for .45 ACP.  

There are "factory crimp" dies for final sizing of loaded rounds which generally only smooth out the upper portion of the cartridge.
 
The standard sizing dies are different and resize the case almost to the base.

Anyway, if the die is correct and set as you describe, then either the bullets are undersize or your expander is oversized as mentioned above.

Also, check see that you have a taper crimp die and and not a roll crimp die.  

Hope this helps. 

cR

If you use a factory crimp die it will 100% resize the projectile to .446-.447. And that’s too small for Bullseye. You need to knock out the tungsten ring and use it just like any other crimp die. 


If you have your seating die touching the shell plate it is not adjusted the right way. The right way to do it is back out the seating stem almost all the way out. Screw the die body down until it comes into contact with the shell plate and back off 3-4 full turns. Lee’s seating die is also a crimping die and you are use if a factory crimp die so that’s why you back the seating die out the turns. Once that’s good to go lock the die down. Now screw the stem down until you reach the desired OAL I like 1.200 for jacketed Bullets and .930 at the shoulder for SWC’s, once this is all done unlock the die and using a finished round run the bullet up and lock the die down for good

After the expand, flare, and powder metering step, remove the case and measure the case ID. The expander should have expanded the case ID to 0.001-0.002" under actual bullet diameter. Any larger, and the bullet won't be held tight. Any smaller, and the bullet can be swaged down (lead bullet) or seated crooked.
If that step is alright, seat a bullet. Inspect the cartridge. Is there a bulge on one "side" of the case where the bottom of the bullet would be? If so, bullet is seated VERY crooked and you need to either get a different expander, a seating stem that actually fits the bullet, or better bullet alignment on the case before seating. Your magic powder-through expander is supposed to help with straight bullet seating, so this shouldn't be a problem.
Is the bullet the same ID? If swaged down, you need to get an expander in a slightly larger diameter.
Next, taper crimp. This crimp is NOT to hold the bullet and all you want to do is remove the case mouth flare so the cartridge will feed and chamber. SAAMI specifies a "crimp" of 0.4730 +0.000/-0.006". This means that the smallest "crimp" should be about 0.467".
Finally, the FCD causes more problems than it solves. Remove the carbide ring and you'll have an excellent taper crimp die.

Any magic to removing the carbide ring? I tried a small socket and some heat, but it did not budge. 

Conversely, should I leave it for making JHP rounds?

joeangi wrote:Any magic to removing the carbide ring? I tried a small socket and some heat, but it did not budge. 

Conversely, should I leave it for making JHP rounds?

It’s alittle tricky. If you look from the top down there are 2 shelves. The socket must hit the 2nd or bottom shelf and put the die in a taped up vice and don’t over tighten. Use an extension and hammer and knock it out

Hi Joe,
Before you go ruining a die; do a test first. If yours fails, just buy a regular taper crimp die and save your FCD for a later use.
I've been using a FCD for over 30 years on my 1050.
Hope this helps.

Calibrating the calipers:


I backed off the FCD crimp ring (no crimp, just sizing by the carbide ring) and loaded two rounds - 1 w/Starline - 1 w/Federal brass


Very lightly removed 180gr Brazos SWC's from both cases - both measure .4525" 

How is that possible because the tungsten ring is smaller than that and every one I have checked will resize the bullet to .446-.447? I have checked at least 20 over the years for people

Calibrated measurements don't lie. Maybe Lee's engineering department spec'd them smaller than the FCD's made in the 1990's.
We metal butchers only make parts to print tolerance. The closer to nominal the better.

James Hensler wrote:How is that possible because the tungsten ring is smaller than that and every one I have checked will resize the bullet to .446-.447? I have checked at least 20 over the years for people

James,
You are driving this notion of destroying Lee FCD at least on the second thread I watch.  It is WRONG, Sir!  Good chance that you got very unlucky with your die, and Wes is absolutely correct in his assumption, - current production of Lee FCD dies has very wide tolerances for precision reloading.  After having three (3!) FCD for 38 Special WC, that measured all different, I contacted Lee and inquired about the subject.  The answer was that all my dies were within acceptable tolerance.  Unfortunately that tolerance was in 0.002" level, which meat from 0.374" (bullet swaging) to 0.376" (feeding problems) and not even close to 0.375" needed for getting my rounds to SAAMI specs and proper feeding.  However my custom ordered FCD came back perfect in 0.3750" size.  Every FCD I use since then are custom ordered with ID specified to tens of tenth (i.e. 0.0xx5").  With that said my 45 ACP FCD has ID of 0.4740" (if I remember correctly!) and accounts for about 0.0009" to 0.0011" case wall thickness and takes to account a 0.0002" brass spring back.  It might be too much of math, but you can take my word, that all of this accounts for 0.452" bullet base not being swaged, coating not being shave, etc.  And that is exactly what Wes eloquently illustrated with his pictures. 

With that said, instead of blindly obtaining FCD dies, and then fighting problem that doesn't exist in first place, it is better to use a simple taper crimp die for the function of crimping, and use FCD only when for one or another reason resulting ammo is out of SAAMI specs, or better yet for one or another reason doesn't feed correctly in the barrel's chamber of your gun.  Knowing parameters of chamber of the barrel on your gun might necessitate ordering custom FCD, as it was the case with my 38 WC ammo after two of my M52s got new Clark's 1:10 barrels.

AP

That helps greatly. I loaded a few tonight and I think that the fcd is the culprit. The rounds cannot be turned by hand after being seated, but can after being run through the fcd. Very strange. I will get just a crimp die and go from there

I will take some pics in the morning.

The first picture...the .468 actually spins easily, even though it is crimped. The .471 does not spin, and has not been through the fcd

Another reason NOT to use a Lee “Factory crimp” die.

Joe,
Check ID of carbide ring on FCD next.  I suspect, reading will be in 0.467" area.  That would be the answer. Math is quite simple.  With 0.471" you have 0.452" in bullet's OD plus two walls - 2 x 0.0095".  In 0.468" bullet gets swaged down to 0.467" minus 0.019" resulting in OD 0.448".  In short, - you are dealing with trivial brass spring back in the amount of 0.001" which is enough to have no tension (friction) between case and bullet.  However more importantly if not corrected, you'd be pushing 0.468" OD ammo into 0.474" chamber of the barrel (per SAAMI), and 0.448" bullet into 0.450" groove diameter (SAAMI).  Without knowing what gun you use and its particulars, I'd speculate accuracy of such combination will not be that great.

AP

Here is a ring I knocked out for a friend last week. If I run a finished round through the ring it would size the bullet to .446 every time! 

I don’t think for bullseye matches that someone should use the FCD but I love and recommend the other Lee dies. Unless you knock out the ring and measure for yourself don’t tell me I’m wrong. Maybe back in the day Lees quality was better but I can positively state that without exception every one I have knocked out has had a ring ID of .468