National Matches

First topic message reminder :

https://thecmp.org/cmp-national-matches/

Scroll down to the picture where it says "pistol". That's me!

Hope to see you all there.

(now you'll recognize me .)

Well there is one thing that you all are forgetting.
The CMP holds the National Matches. Period
In the past, the nra ran their matches “ in conjunction with” the National Matches. Now, they don’t…. So the NRA has nothing to do with the National Matches. 

Now, I am sure that past champions are deservingly proud of their accomplishments as they should be, but winning at Perry….. that’s the ultimate.

Is there/was there a charter or something from higher up that might solve this champion question?

Jack H wrote:Is there/was there a charter or something from higher up that might solve this champion question?

I believe Congress in 1903, DCM(now CMP) would have National Matches.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPBrochure-w.pdf?ver043020

SaraiEsq wrote:CMP 2022
Jon Shue  2647-141X
Carl Clegg  2632-123X
Ryan Franks  2630-119X
John Zurek  2629-117X
Lisa Traciak  2629-114X

NRA 2022
Carl Clegg 2649-143X
Jon Shue  2648-129X
John Zurek  2639-131X
Greg Markowski  2634-109X
Daniel Kupar  2630-116X

Name // CMP finish // NRA finish
Jon Shue // 1 / 2
Carl Clegg // 2 / 1
Ryan Franks // 3 / (did not fire complete 2700)
John Zurek // 4 / 3
Lisa Traciak // 5 / 8
Greg Markowski // 19 / 4
Daniel Kupar // 25 / 5

Aren’t the conditions at Perry often notoriously difficult (vs Atterbury)?

You are correct, while each range has its nuances, 
Perry out ranks all others on the difficulty scale. 
So trying to compare scores from different ranges is disingenuous at best.

james r chapman wrote:

Jack H wrote:Is there/was there a charter or something from higher up that might solve this champion question?

I believe Congress in 1903, DCM(now CMP) would have National Matches.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPBrochure-w.pdf?ver043020

From that CMP link:

CMP HISTORY
The Civilian Marksmanship Program traces its
origin to 1903 when Congress and the President
established the National Matches and National
Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. The
program gave life to a concept advanced by
President Theodore Roosevelt and several
other national leaders that marksmanship
skills developed through regular practice and
competition contribute to the nation’s defense.
After WWII, the program mission increasingly
focused on fostering youth development through
marksmanship. When the program expanded
to make its competitions and military support
available to civilians, it became known as the
“Civilian Marksmanship Program, or CMP.” In
1996, Congress privatized the program by creating
a federally chartered, not-for-profit corporation
known as the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle
Practice and Firearm Safety, Inc. CMP Programs
include the National Matches, Small Arms Firing
Schools and a myriad of youth and adult firearm
safety, marksmanship and training programs.

I thought so.  That settles it in my mind.

Danehogle wrote:You are correct, while each range has its nuances, 
Perry out ranks all others on the difficulty scale. 
So trying to compare scores from different ranges is disingenuous at best.

Both Sara and I are spring chickens at this endeavor and I don’t think that she has attended either venue — I haven’t. Disingenuous, she is not and I hope my question didn’t imply such a serious accusation.

Honestly I was curious how close the scores were at the very top (anything over 2400 is astounding to me). But as I thought about it I recalled all the reports I’d read about the reality of shooting at CP, and I modified my interpretation to be even more impressed. 

Btw, don’t know anything about the Wx on the dates in question at each venue in 2022. So maybe they are comparable. Or possibly Atterbury was a more difficult challenge that year. Who knows?

Danehogle wrote:So trying to compare scores from different ranges is disingenuous at best.

dis·in·gen·u·ous
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.


If your statement was directed toward my posting:
1) I posted the top three shooters at each match to provide data.  I edited it to provide the top five and their relative finishes at the two matches.  I purposefully did not provide commentary.
2) I have never been to Camp Perry.  I have been to Camp Atterbury for training and to watch the NRA Nationals.  I have no experience shooting at either range, only anecdotal accounts.
3) Your statement could be read as calling into question my personal honesty and integrity.  I consider that to be insulting.
4) RodJ is correct -- I am new to shooting precision pistol.  I tend to avoid the NRA/CMP debates because I just don't get it.

Whoa, guys, calm down!

I think that JE put it quite nicely - Apples to Oranges. 

Putting the scores up here was a thoughtful thing - well done SaraiEsq.

Yes the weather was more testing at Atterbury in 2022 - IMHO - the wind blew pretty hard  - I remember because I was not able to extend the awning on my RV for fear of it being blown into the next county!

Again, IMHO, Jon Shue was 2022 National Champion. Well done Jon!

This is what Jon E. posted.

I just searched 2022 CMP Nationals Results. 21 High Masters. That’s the reality of the event…..yeah I probably just pissed off a lot of people, but we’re discussing “The National Champion “.
NRA 2022 Nationals had 19 High Masters.

I am not sure what he meant by Apples to Oranges.  When I look at the top shooters they were all at both matches so to me it is the same.  The scores were very similar at the top.  And yes the weather was difficult on Saturday at Atterbury.  I have been going to Perry since the late 90's (1998 i think was the first year) and I have not missed a year.  Shot in all the weather.  Also have gone to both years at Atterbury and enjoyed it a lot.

Dane you were wrong with your statement.  2021 was very comparable at both matches.  If you don't think so why were the result essentially the same.

My apples and oranges comment could've been more clear.

Basically, it doesn't matter how many people are attending the match (800 vs 200), the HM are not paying any attention to that. They are paying attention to only the other HM.

I've shot 2650+ with 15 people at a match and 2650+ with hundreds of people at a match, I wasn't paying any attention to the masses.

But I will add as an aside, the World Championships has more of the best shooters in attendance than the Olympics (quota). So realistically winning a WC is harder than winning an Olympic medal from a competitor attendance- view point. But as we all know many choke at the Olympics.

Jon

Sorry didn’t mean to sound mean spirited or pissy. Sometimes folks don’t know other folks and may have had other experiences that draw them to mistaken conclusions. And as we all know, the interwebs lacks “tone” and non-verbal cues.

ANYWAY thanks RoyDean! And, Sara, I may not be disingenuous but it has been asserted (with some merit) that I am disin-genius!

Lol!

SaraiEsq wrote:CMP 2022
Jon Shue  2647-141X
Carl Clegg  2632-123X
Ryan Franks  2630-119X
John Zurek  2629-117X
Lisa Traciak  2629-114X

NRA 2022
Carl Clegg 2649-143X
Jon Shue  2648-129X
John Zurek  2639-131X
Greg Markowski  2634-109X
Daniel Kupar  2630-116X

Name // CMP finish // NRA finish
Jon Shue // 1 / 2
Carl Clegg // 2 / 1
Ryan Franks // 3 / (did not fire complete 2700)
John Zurek // 4 / 3
Lisa Traciak // 5 / 8
Greg Markowski // 19 / 4
Daniel Kupar // 25 / 5

 Jon Shue and Carl Clegg alternated first/second between the NRA and CMP "National Championships, I declare Jon Shue as the 2022 National Champion because he had the higher combined score. This is a game of score, the higher score wins. While there is no prize or trophy I think we can all agree that the highest score wins unless someone wants to start scoring differently.

Congratulations to Mr. Shue.


-m-


P.S. Hope this wasn't political.

Brilliantly played!

RodJ wrote:Brilliantly played!

Thank you! I try.


-m-

chopper wrote:Having never been to the National Matches I probably don't have much say so about this. Here is my take on it anyway. There are 2 major sanctioning bodies and each has its followers, to me they are equal in that they both represent precision shooting. So if each has an overall champion with the highest score, then there could be a true National Champion between both NRA/CMP bodies with a shoot off 2700. There could be an invite only between the top 5 highest scoring shooters from both CMP and the NRA. If a shooter is in both of the top five, then there will only be 9 competing or possibly less if more than one is duplicated.
 Wouldn't it be something if an Expert made it to the invite, like Jon says "salutes to them".

Stan

I shot the Nationals for a number of yrs. The "magic" or interest in them was that we "all" could enter. Hundreds of competitors, commercial row etc. 

5 to 10 entries? How many vendors would be there?  Would you drive a day to watch? If so why?

Ron Habegger

There is this match for 2023-

2023 Bullseye Tournament of Champions Invitational (bullseyeforum.net)

"Beginning in 2023, the Bullseye Tournament of Champions Invitational will pit the Top Finishers from the biggest, most prestigious matches across the country in a 1-Day, 1-Relay Nearly-Winner-Take-All match for $2000 (based on full line)."

History says the winner of the "matches" at Camp Perry was the National Champion be it rifle, pistol or whatever since way before any of us were born. So be it CMP ran, or NRA ran, the winner of the matches at Camp Perry is in my opinion the true National Champion! But if CMP doesn't start giving recognition to the people who win in their individual classifications you will not ever see me attend another CMP Championship. YES, I have heartburn over the lack of recognition to those of us who will never be a Master or High Master shooter, after all we are the backbone and the future of the sport!!!!!

shanneba wrote:There is this match for 2023-

2023 Bullseye Tournament of Champions Invitational (bullseyeforum.net)

"Beginning in 2023, the Bullseye Tournament of Champions Invitational will pit the Top Finishers from the biggest, most prestigious matches across the country in a 1-Day, 1-Relay Nearly-Winner-Take-All match for $2000 (based on full line)."

Will this match be the final determination of the National Champion? Fired the same day under the same conditions that claim could, and likely will, be made. When NRA parted ways with CMP and Camp Perry the situation became muddled.

Ron Habegger

There were some attempts similar to this “Tournament of Champions” event staged for Highpower way way back in the early 1980s. If I’m remembering right, it was called “The Master’s Highpower Championship” Only one or two events were held IIRC. To qualify you had to place high in the National Championships or win an NRA Regional or State Championship. Entries were limited and it was held at Camp Perry in May…. (Bear with me my memory is not 100% full of the details.)

In highpower rifle it works like this…

CMP, President’s 100 winner: Is winner of the P100 match. Not the National Champion

CMP, National Trophy Individual winner: Is the NTI winner.

NRA, 3-day aggregate winner: Is the National Champion of the across the course discipline.

All three events (P100, NTI, & NRA national championship) are the same across the course discipline but the NRA winner is always given the title as “National Champion”. After the NRA departure from Camp Perry the CMP has started holding a 3-day aggregate match that is the same course of fire and same exact series of events as the NRA National Championship tournament. However, the CMP match is only considered “The CMP Cup”. It is not the National Championship. The P100 and NTI winners can claim that they are winners of a National Trophy but not a National Championship. The whole thing seems a little confusing now that the CMP and NRA have split venues but when held together, it all made much more sense.

To John Eulette’s point, the BE discipline has mirrored the rifle structure prior to the NRA/CMP split and if it is to continue to mirror the rifle structure then the NRA BE winner at Atterbury is the National Champion.

Hope this helps to add some context.

-Trevor Hengehold