Canton McKinley Frank Bickar Memorial Match

I, and, I presume, many on this forum too, received solicitation letter from the President of the club asking for input on proposed changes for the format of the match.  In nut shell, suggested change is shrinking match to two days with shooting two 900s (22 & CF) on first day, and 45's 900 and all EIC matches including revolver on second.  Team matches would be eliminated as well as evening activities for one of the days.  There are two questions being asked:
1. Yes / No on participation if format gets changed, and
2. Preferred days - Friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday.

When it comes to this particular match, I personally have no single answer.  I like the way match was run, like people and atmosphere of the match.  Minor factor for me in keeping old format is in the fact that our team took first in class this year, and I even got whopping $6 prize  .  However, determining factor for me rather is the synchronization with other matches of the OH/IN trip.  Especially between Canton and Perry, as housing at Perry might not be available if former ends day earlier.

Bringing this up for discussion.

AP

I have only shot the regional once, but the loss of teams likely will be a bummer to many.

I likely the relaxed nature of a 900/day match, but I also can see benefits of shooting 22/CF one day then 45/EICs the next. The question I have is how would they handle the relays? Relay 1 shoots 22, Relay 2 shoots 22, Relay 1 CF, ect. Or Relay 1 shoots 22 then straight into CF, then relay 2 follows.

Another thing that won't be like it used to be.

I am okay with the consolidation as it cuts down on down time and makes it easier to fit it in. I have always enjoyed the Canton match when I have been able to attend. (including the COVID year with essentially 1 relay) While it will be different, it will still be the atmosphere of Canton and plenty of quality shooters.

At Phoenix Desert Mid Winter match they allow/shoot EIC matches at same time as team matches. Everyone shooting NMC. Perhaps Canton can do same thing. 
I personally think team matches are a big deal! Canton is largest Regional Championship in country and winning a team match there is a big deal. Shooters traveling long distances deserve opportunity to shoot team!
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:At Phoenix Desert Mid Winter match they allow/shoot EIC matches at same time as team matches. Everyone shooting NMC. Perhaps Canton can do same thing. 
I personally think team matches are a big deal! Canton is largest Regional Championship in country and winning a team match there is a big deal. Shooters traveling long distances deserve opportunity to shoot team!
Jon

Jon,

I definitely agre with you about team matches being a significant factor in attracting participation.  I also like that the match director for the Desert Midwinter allows EIC competitors to shoot pretty much anytime when an NMC is being fired by simply infiltrating onto the line.
While at Canton I asked if I could do this on .45 day so I could depart early for Perry.  I was given a very firm, unpleasant NO!  So, I just skipped the SP EIC and requested my money back!!

Mike

Mike,

Though it is a common practice to do as you described, it actually is not allowed in the rules.

Rule 8.3.3 Match Scheduling-CMP Pistol Competition Rules 2023

Pistol EIC Matches must be fired as separate scheduled events. Pistol EIC Matches may have separate EIC relays on two or three days if the EIC Match is conducted in conjunction with a single multi-day pistol competition. All relays of an EIC Match must be fired on the same range. Any deviation from this Rule that is not approved by CMP Competitions in accordance with Rule 3.1.5 will be cause for disallowing the scores fired in 

Ah! CMP Rules and Bureaucracy again!

One of my pet hobby-horses!

My biggest concern re' Canton is that if there are no team events then the AMU and other groups may decide not to attend at all. I understand that those Units are re-directing budget towards "run & gun" events anyway (that was said to be the reason they did not attend Atterbury this year).

Canton would be a lesser occasion if no military teams attend. Pity.

Team matches are fun, but if you’re not on a team it is just dead time.  So mixing team matches with EICs would work.

RoyDean wrote:Ah! CMP Rules and Bureaucracy again!

From a shooter’s perspective it is somewhat frustrating, from running a match it makes sense. 22 EIC has the lift, Service Revolver has a P100 course of fire. Everyone is shooting the same thing makes it easier to run the line.

The military teams also shoot the EICs so it would kinda suck to have to choose between teams and EIC, especially service pistol as it is hard to get enough shooters for more than a leg or two.

The letter states that a major concern for the club is difficulty in attracting sufficient volunteers to cover a four day event. I have never considered that issue previously - selfish me I guess. No question that that is a serious issue.

It is a timely reminder that I (and all other shooters) should not express any dis-satisfaction with any officials on the line at any match. They are all volunteers who graciously give up their time to support us shooters. Admirable and deserving of proper respect.

Hi all! For those who shoot our match...
1. Thank You so much! We appreciate y'all coming out to shoot!!!
2. Please answer the letter! The future of the the regional really does weigh on the responses we get!
3. If you didnt get the letter, please contact Ernie Thibault at the club,,,or post them on here and we can forward your concerns along!!!
Best,
JJ

JJ, do you or the club mind if I post your letter here on this thread for all to read?

RoyDean wrote:JJ, do you or the club mind if I post your letter here on this thread for all to read?

Not at all!!! Post away!!!!!
JJ

Here is the letter

Hi all...Just a bump for this post for those who are still considering the above letter from Ken Pifer. If you haven't already please respond to the letter ...one way or another! We as a club are still trying to come up with what is best for the competitors and CMRPC!!!
Very Best,
JJ

Grouse wrote:Hi all...Just a bump for this post for those who are still considering the above letter from Ken Pifer. If you haven't already please respond to the letter ...one way or another! We as a club are still trying to come up with what is best for the competitors and CMRPC!!!
Very Best,
JJ

It's still in my inbox. I haven't gotten to it yet, but I will respond!

Thanks for running the best bullseye match on the planet!

Do you think a 915-word reply with 10MB of photos was too much?

I have ... opinions ... about this match.

For those that don't want to write a 915-word reply, nor provide 27 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one, here were the two easy questions to answer:

1. If we change to the two day format without team matches, would you still participate in the match?

2. If we hold a two day match, which two days would you prefer, Friday and Saturday, or Saturday and Sunday?

I read back through the thread to make sure I caught everything. In my 915-word reply, I:

- advocated for team matches
- addressed the "dead time" for competitors (particularly acute in 2023 with the two-hour lunch break)
- acknowledged the challenges for volunteers and thanked everyone in my Club (I'm a Life Member) for their contributions to the sport
- addressed the timing issue with Camp Perry start date and everyone skedaddling before "cease fire" is even announced for the last string on Sunday
- advocated for bringing back the raffle tickets. I led a successful firing-line revolt on that this year on .22 day. It's perhaps the only revolt I've ever led; definitely the most successful.

I think that covers most of them.

"915-word reply, nor provide 27 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one"


John,
    Nice reference to "Alice's Restaurant." I thought that was pretty funny. I wonder how many readers caught that?

Caster3845 wrote:"915-word reply, nor provide 27 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one"


John,
    Nice reference to "Alice's Restaurant." I thought that was pretty funny. I wonder how many readers caught that?

Kid, have you rehabilitated yourself?

(It's a Thanksgiving tradition in the Bickar household, and we're only one week removed from that holiday, so it's fresh in my mind.)

Kid, have you ever been arrested?
That song is great. I think I could listen to it at least once a day if it wasn't quite so long. There is one line in there that would get him "cancelled" by the lib crowd.

1- Yes
2- Sat-Sun.

Just an update for the group, The Frank J. Bickar Memorial will be a three day match July 12,13,14. No teams, but will have CMP Service Revolver. Some other changes will likely be present. Match Bulletin is to be published in March.

You can get anything you want at Alice's Resturant!!!!