Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by bmac on 5/31/2014, 9:47 am

First topic message reminder :

A wider variety of pistols classified as service pistols + more EIC matches per year.

http://www.thecmp.org/competitions/Forms/ProposedCMPPistolProgramChanges.pdf

Comment period ends July 7th.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 11/13/2014, 10:19 am

Hmmmm   I only need 26 more points with the long gun to become double distinguished.  My hope is they will allow more matches fired each year.  Never understood why they would limit the number of matches fired.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 11/13/2014, 10:29 am

Dan, the plan was supposedly to allow more matches for both rifle and pistol. That would be really nice. I too need 26 rifle points. However I still need 30 pistol point.  Smile
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 11/13/2014, 10:37 am

I never understood the match limit thing either - talk about a participation reducer!  In my way of thinking why limit the number of matches at all, if someone wants to drive to an EIC match every weekend until they got enough points then good for them, it shows dedication!  Also with the limit off we might get enough participants locally to be able to give out a hard leg.

- Dave
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 11/13/2014, 10:40 am

I think that the pistol limit will be 4 or 5 + Nationals. I hope the rifle limit is that as well.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 11/13/2014, 1:20 pm

As I remember the message from CMP there was no talk about change to rifle, but I can see how they would allow the same change in rules in pistol to rifle. I've also thought it was insane for a group to say they want more participation but limit the amount of matches?? Now they are saying you can shoot a Ruger Redhawk, it seems to be a very fractured, uneven interpretation of tradition and rules. like they have resisted change for so long now they feel they have to let completely loose. I don't get it.
Seems like over the years I always heard people say they wanted to see the "original 1911/1911a1 appearance" rule changed so they could shoot a off the shelf available 1911. Now they go and change to most any pistol is allowed taking away the service pistol tradition to becoming distinguished. From one side of the spectrum to the  opposite, I don't get it. 
Did anybody hear about the .22 match program?

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 11/13/2014, 1:29 pm

The reason for limiting matches per season is the added pressure each shooter feels knowing that this is a big one. 

That is part of what makes the badge special. It's a journey that takes years.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 11/13/2014, 5:34 pm

Dewey,
when I went from never owning a gun to Distinguished in 2.5 years that never occurred to me. I always thought it was just another 30 rounds so I might as well do my best. Then I went and got my rifle badge, just another 50 rounds. Mental Management tip #1 is never tell yourself  "this is the big one", think about it. You're supposed to apply the pressure while training so there is no pressure in a match.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Colt711 on 11/14/2014, 1:49 am

The last e-mail from CMP listed names of those who earned badges during the past season. There were 5 rifle and 13 pistol listed. In the past there were many more shooters in rifle EIC's than pistol. Those numbers indicate the pistol has become more reachable than rifle and the "problem" lies elsewhere. 250 has been mentioned as a mniimum score for points. Barring unusual conditions that score is a joke. In the 70's a score of 270 was a rule of thumb to get a shooter past the cutoff. Perry, Bristol, IN,& Canton cutoffs were usually 271-272. I hope the committee recognizes a need to keep the badge's prestige at a high level! Just another opinion.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 11/14/2014, 11:43 am

The minimum of 250 (which is close to the cutoff at Camp Perry) is designed to keep people from getting 50 people together and handing out points for scores that wouldn't normally qualify. I just wonder what they will do on a nasty Perry day with gusts to 60mph (like we had during rifle this year). Toss in some rain and a 250 might be a GOOD score.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Jack H on 11/14/2014, 12:02 pm

I think they should add badge rockers that indicate I am D with top score 260-269, 270-279, 280-289, 290+.  Rockers awarded even after earning D.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 11/14/2014, 12:07 pm

A match director in my area once had to stop a match due to safety in the target pits after the 300 yard stage. he sent a copy of the local airport weather conditions documenting 35 knot winds and they still issued EIC points. I believe he also took a simple video with his phone to document the dangerous conditions but didn't have to send that in.
The minimum cut score has been debated for years but never seems to gain traction. We shall see shortly if they added it to requirements.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 11/14/2014, 12:31 pm

Rocker for which score? The final one, the first one? 

Distinguished means in the top 10% for shooters and having earned 30 points. It used to be that you shot issue hardball, and needed a score in the top 10% along with one leg at Perry. Now it is 30 points with 230 gr ammo and a hard leg (8 or 10 point leg) in 3 matches + Perry. Next year it may be 30  points, any ammo and a hardleg in 5 matches + Perry and a minimum score of 250. Regardless you have to be in the top 10%. In rifle, I have seen people go out at Perry with a score that might not have earned points in a smaller match. They are still distinguished. 

I don't think that the new minimum is going to make it easier. How many times does someone shoot the minimum and still Leg?

The benefit of more matches is that, hopefully, more people will shoot. This will offer more legs and help the program grow. One can earn points in the M9 SAFS match using 2 hands, but those will be the last points that you get of you don't learn to shoot 1 handed and "on your hind legs."
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Jack H on 11/14/2014, 1:22 pm

My rockers would be retro for your best score while earning D.  But not awarded until you get D the usual (or new) way.  Retro even for us who are D.  I have always held that a 280 shooter is more D than a 260 shooter and there should be recognition for that.  And as a D shooter continues, there would be upgrade rockers for improved performance in EIC.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Al on 11/14/2014, 3:42 pm

Jack H wrote:  I have always held that a 280 shooter is more D than a 260 shooter and there should be recognition for that.  And as a D shooter continues, there would be upgrade rockers for improved performance in EIC.
Jack,
If both scores were shot in the same weather conditions I would also have more respect for the 280 shooter. 

However from personal experience my second leg (2002) was shot in winds gusting up to 45 mph and I was very very happy with a 264.  A few weeks later I'm at Perry for the first time and listening to someone griping about the 20 mph light breeze, it was difficult to keep a straight face. 

We shoot in all parts of the country.  Some areas with little to no wind, and some like Wyoming and North Dakota where anything under 20 is considered calm conditions.  In 15 years of shooting BE I've had exactly one outdoor ND match where there was no wind.  I'm thinking the powers that be have shot in enough wind to, not, assign a minimum score as there's just so many weather variables that can't be factored into every area of the country.

I do like the idea of additional rockers for higher scores, but in all honesty my hardball gun only gets used now when I loan it out at EIC matches, shame on me.

Al

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by tierney on 11/16/2014, 7:10 am

I think the idea of rockers is a great way to encourage participation in our sport.  I don't know if retro rockers would work as I don't know how far back the records have been kept, do records from DCM days even exist, anymore?  But I wouldn't be opposed to that idea.  I also agree with those who are commenting about the match conditions and the effects they have on scores.  How about if rockers are awarded for high scores only at Perry.  This does a couple of things.  One, a lot of the time the weather at Perry is less than optimal so plus its a pressure cooker psychologically.  So a personal best there would mean something to all of us.  Two, it levels the issue of match conditions to the best extent possible, making the rockers more comparable between competitors.  Earning the score at Perry means something to all of us who shoot there.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Ghillieman on 11/17/2014, 4:07 am

No need for a minimum score. All leg matches are different. A 250 on a blustering freezing day, like today was, would be a good score. But bring back the Camp Perry leg.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 11/30/2014, 11:37 pm

It's now December. I'm looking forward to seeing the rules for 2015.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 12/29/2014, 9:41 pm

The changes are out:


http://thecmp.org/cmp-pistol-program-rule-changes-for-2015/

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by bmac on 12/29/2014, 10:12 pm

Just saw this over on the National Match forums. http://thecmp.org/cmp-pistol-program-rule-changes-for-2015/

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 12/29/2014, 10:25 pm

Thank you for this link.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/29/2014, 10:33 pm

Did anybody find the list of approved pistols?
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 12/29/2014, 10:45 pm

It's not out yet, Rob. It won't be released officially until the rule books are published.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by CR10X on 12/30/2014, 7:12 am

Dewey is correct, the proposed changes are not posted.  As a matter of fact the existing rule book says right on the cover that it is for the 2015 competition year.  So, what the heck is the CMP doing?  I don't mind changes, but when competitors plan on the rules that are posted for a specific time (2015 competition year) and they are changed midstream it does not create a very high level of confidence that other changes will not negate the value of whatever pistol you may have just purchased or chosen for the year.  I don't mind changes, I do expect consistency and planning.

© 2014, Civilian Marksmanship Program
Effective date 1 February 2014
This edition supersedes the 17th 2013 Edition and
will remain in effect through the 2015 competition year.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 12/30/2014, 7:31 am

It's been known for months that rule changes were in the works and a decision was going to be made by year end.

You can never please anyone with the timing on rule changes, about 3 months ago my buddy sold a Les Baer PII with the 1 1/2" guarantee to fund a ball gun purchase. He is going to be pissed.

Press release was made on Dec 29th. for 2015.
I'm sure they will follow up with an official printing which normally comes out in Jan or Feb. and yes last year they decide to change the rule book publishing to every 2 years to cut down printing costs - bad timing on that one.

- Dave
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 12/30/2014, 10:06 am

Exciting News!


The pistol that you shot this year will be legal next year. But others will too. You will need to shoot a 250 minimum centerfire and a 260 minimum .22. You can shoot 5 matches plus Camp Perry.  

I am left with some questions. 

1. Does Metal Jacketed include Jacketed Hollow points?
2. Does the number of military matches that a civilian may shoot for EIC credit go up?

It does appear that the new rules would allow me to shoot my Range Officer (iron sights), but I would have to increase the trigger weight to do so. I plan to continue to shoot my ball gun, though I may play around with loads.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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