Quest for the perfect handgun platform

First topic message reminder :

I've entered this territory before but now after experiencing some problems with revolvers I want to raise the question again.  What is the ideal handgun platform, theoretical or practical?  It seems to me, setting ammunition and internal barrel geometry aside, that the best platform is simply one in which the round is chambered in the barrel (as in a 1911) but the barrel does not change position relative to its sighting between rounds (not like a 1911).  The problems with revolvers as just discovered rule them out as an ideal platform because there apparently is always the possibility and likelihood that the barrel is not in line with the cylinder.  The 1911 on the other hand always seems to struggle with having the barrel return to its original and stationary position.  So, fixed barrel and round chambered in barrel, does it exist in a larger than .32 caliber auto loading handgun?  Is it even theoretically possible?

larvatus wrote:

beeser wrote:

DavidR wrote:With a estimated price between 10 and 15k, they would really have to shave the price, but I do like it.

I don't know where you got those figures but I was quoted a little over $5k with existing stock and less on the next wave of imports after factoring in a stronger dollar.  But as you stated earlier it would be nice to see how this gun would perform in the hands of a good shooter.  I would also like to hear about spare parts availability and service.  On a Korth revolver the later may not be an issue but this auto is a different animal.  I also thought it was interesting that a few reports coming out of Shot Show 2015 calling this gun a Korth 1911.  It looks like they are trying to be careful about not offending 1911 enthusiasts.

The current MSRP of the Korth PRS is $3,000.00.

-- 
Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | voice:323.363.1860 | fax:323.410.2373
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

Don't know where you saw that but I was going off the statement in the review;
''Korth does not list what the PRS will sell for on their website. Prices are available on request. But it is safe to say that it will run in the $5,000 to $10,000 range; at the upper limit Korth pistols cost about $15,000."

DavidR wrote:

larvatus wrote:

beeser wrote:

DavidR wrote:With a estimated price between 10 and 15k, they would really have to shave the price, but I do like it.

I don't know where you got those figures but I was quoted a little over $5k with existing stock and less on the next wave of imports after factoring in a stronger dollar.  But as you stated earlier it would be nice to see how this gun would perform in the hands of a good shooter.  I would also like to hear about spare parts availability and service.  On a Korth revolver the later may not be an issue but this auto is a different animal.  I also thought it was interesting that a few reports coming out of Shot Show 2015 calling this gun a Korth 1911.  It looks like they are trying to be careful about not offending 1911 enthusiasts.

The current MSRP of the Korth PRS is $3,000.00.

-- 
Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | voice:323.363.1860 | fax:323.410.2373
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

Don't know where you saw that but I was going off the statement in the review;
''Korth does not list what the PRS will sell for on their website. Prices are available on request. But it is safe to say that it will run in the $5,000 to $10,000 range; at the upper limit Korth pistols cost about $15,000."

I am going by statements made to me by the owners of Korth. It is safe to say that their reports trump speculative hearsay.

beeser wrote:

larvatus wrote:The current MSRP of the Korth PRS is $3,000.00.

-- 
Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | voice:323.363.1860 | fax:323.410.2373
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

Based on your video shooting the PRS, what are your impressions of it?  Was this MSRP given to you by the manufacturer at Shot Show?  Was it for the base 4" model?

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Thank you. 

I like the PRS. The only issue I ever had with the HK P9S was its slapping a SMG upper on a lower by Mattel. Korth fixes that.

great to hear, where can I buy one? or is this something that might be available at a unknown future date, like the dragon gun?

DavidR wrote:great to hear, where can I buy one? or is this something that might be available at a unknown future date, like the dragon gun?

Best ask Korth.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Korth-Arms/1374951989413003

larvatus wrote:

DavidR wrote:great to hear, where can I buy one? or is this something that might be available at a unknown future date, like the dragon gun?

Best ask Korth.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Korth-Arms/1374951989413003

I did and was referred to delray shooting, one of their authorized dealers who told me he had gotten a few in a month ago but no idea when he would have more, I asked what the PRS sold for and he stated 6000.00 range.  just posted this to their fb page, lets see what they say.



"When will the prs bullseye gun be available, how much will it cost and will you publish accuracy tests showing what size groups it will shoot at 50 yards?"

DavidR wrote:

larvatus wrote:

DavidR wrote:great to hear, where can I buy one? or is this something that might be available at a unknown future date, like the dragon gun?

Best ask Korth.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Korth-Arms/1374951989413003

I did and was referred to delray shooting, one of their authorized dealers who told me he had gotten a few in a month ago but no idea when he would have more, I asked what the PRS sold for and he stated 6000.00 range.  just posted this to their fb page, lets see what they say.



"When will the prs bullseye gun be available, how much will it cost and will you publish accuracy tests showing what size groups it will shoot at 50 yards?"

Delray Shooting is pricing its PRS whimsically. For the time being, your best recourse may be a personal import.

larvatus wrote:Delray Shooting is pricing its PRS whimsically. For the time being, your best recourse may be a personal import.

That's the impression I got when talking with the dealer in Mass. as well.  Their guesstimate on price was a little over $5k but wouldn't commit to a firm figure until their next batch of Korths arrive. 

larvatus - You must be reading my mind on the personal import approach.  Have you done this before?  I'm beginning the process on another firearm and would like to learn more.

Just watched several videos of the 45 prs being shot, it has very noticeable  recoil, I like the idea of the gun but so far I see no reason to own one. I have two top end 45s, a Mike Curtis and a Strahan Accu-Lock, both have much less recoil and shoot sub 1.5'' groups with my handloads. I will leave the korth alone for now, maybe when it can be proven to offer some advantage to a 1911 I will revisit the idea of owning one.

DavidR wrote:Just watched several videos of the 45 prs being shot, it has very noticeable  recoil, I like the idea of the gun but so far I see no reason to own one. I have two top end 45s, a Mike Curtis and a Strahan Accu-Lock, both have much less recoil and shoot sub 1.5'' groups with my handloads. I will leave the korth alone for now, maybe when it can be proven to offer some advantage to a 1911 I will revisit the idea of owning one.

Isn't the apparent recoil dependent on what ammunition is being used?  It looked like factory hardball ammo was used in all of the videos I saw.  Wouldn't a better concern be will it cycle SWC bullets?

beeser wrote:

DavidR wrote:Just watched several videos of the 45 prs being shot, it has very noticeable  recoil, I like the idea of the gun but so far I see no reason to own one. I have two top end 45s, a Mike Curtis and a Strahan Accu-Lock, both have much less recoil and shoot sub 1.5'' groups with my handloads. I will leave the korth alone for now, maybe when it can be proven to offer some advantage to a 1911 I will revisit the idea of owning one.

Isn't the apparent recoil dependent on what ammunition is being used?  It looked like factory hardball ammo was used in all of the videos I saw.  Wouldn't a better concern be will it cycle SWC bullets?

yes that's another big question, will it shoot reduced lswc loads and do it accurately the pardini gt45 is a great gun but it is very ammo finicky, so that is one reason it never made it into many top shooters hands. Too many things need to be answered before I would even consider the prs for use in bullseye.

But im still anxious to see how it does.

Not sure if I like the idea of the dot having to be mounted that far forward. It could be very nosey. If you use a conventional ultradot it would be in the muzzle flash area. Even a micro would extend past the barrel. My .02.

Len

I would not get too excited... Think back to the proclamations of recent years, that predicted the best 1911 since the beginning of time..There have been several...
None, have made a significant change..and have mostly faded from the scene..

Jerry Keefer wrote:I would not get too excited... Think back to the proclamations of recent years, that predicted the best 1911 since the beginning of time..There have been several...
None, have made a significant change..and have mostly faded from the scene..

Not a 1911, but my 952 instantly came to mind when reading this.

Jerry Keefer wrote:I would not get too excited... Think back to the proclamations of recent years, that predicted the best 1911 since the beginning of time..There have been several...
None, have made a significant change..and have mostly faded from the scene..

Not to put you on a spot but again, what do you think of the PRS design itself.  Wouldn't you agree that a fixed barrel is at least a step in the right direction and an improvement over the 1911?

beeser wrote:

Jerry Keefer wrote:I would not get too excited... Think back to the proclamations of recent years, that predicted the best 1911 since the beginning of time..There have been several...
None, have made a significant change..and have mostly faded from the scene..

Not to put you on a spot but again, what do you think of the PRS design itself.  Wouldn't you agree that a fixed barrel is at least a step in the right direction and an improvement over the 1911?

I can't give an intelligent opinion, because I have never seen one.. My skepticism is based on what is known about producing an accurate 1911 system. The concept of a fixed barrel is not new, and it has not prevailed in the past, because the 45ACP pushes the envelope when it comes to bleeding off the pressures. It works within limits, but I'll be surprised if it becomes bullseye friendly. 1.5 groups are beginning to be reasonably attainable.. That is very good accuracy from  a proven system, at a price less than the Korth. I don't see accuracy getting much better, without some changes to the barrel/projectile relationship.. A barrel tester will dispel a lot of illusions about phenomenal accuracy claims..Whether static or dynamic, the barrel still needs the internal properties to produce exceptional accuracy.

Another fixed barrel design can be found in the very nice and currently produced Korriphila HSP 701.

beeser wrote:

BE Mike wrote:....If your goal is to find the most novel and accurate pistol, then go for it. OTOH, if your goal is to see what heights you can achieve, then train.

Can't I do both?

I don't consider myself as having much talent at shooting bullseye pistol and I never got any coaching. I also was living over a hundred miles from the nearest bullseye club. Making master was a big effort for me. When I decided to try to go for it, as I was working at a pretty demanding job at the time, I had to devote a large part of my free time to training. On the advice of some masters on the old Bullseye-L, I quit shooting three guns and focused on just two. I finally made it and got distinguished. YMMV, but I don't think I could have done the training and tried to chase the perfect platform at the same time.

I remember reading a story in "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury". Bill Blankenship said that he went to a match where everyone was talking about a shooter who had a gun that would shoot an inch at 50 yards. Bill said that he knew that his gun wasn't nearly that accurate. He further said that he decided to just not worry about it and shoot the match. He ended up winning. His goal was to shoot the best he could and he accomplished it.

beeser wrote:Another fixed barrel design can be found in the very nice and currently produced Korriphila HSP 701.

I believe that it is a double action only pistol from the shape of the trigger.

Clarence

Have a friend that got to shoot the korth prs 45,last week he said it was very heavy and had quite abit of recoil with 185 zero jhp ammo, 25 yd groups were very accurate. He told me it was nicely built but he would keep his 1911. I forgot to ask what it cost, but it had been ordered last year at the shot show and just came in 3 weeks ago.

DavidR wrote:Have a friend that got to shoot the korth prs 45,last week he said it was very heavy and had quite abit of recoil with 185 zero jhp ammo, 25 yd groups were very accurate. He told me it was nicely built but he would keep his 1911. I forgot to ask what it cost, but it had been ordered last year at the shot show and just came in 3 weeks ago.

According to the Korth website the PRS 4" weighs in at 35 ozs. and the 6" 40 ozs.  A SA Range Officer by comparison weighs 40 ozs.  I would expect recoil to be slightly more and straight back because of the fixed barrel but muzzle flip on the other hand reduced, a good compromise in my opinion.  If your friend or friends friend is unhappy with the gun have them contact me.  I would be interested in buying it.

Not sure why he said it felt heavy, it was a 5'' model, just repeting his words as I didn't see the gun myself. But the owner is a collector, after they shot it that one time I bet he never shoots it again, he has many that he has that way in his collection.

Pictures I saw of that pistols beavertail grip safety fit were horrible. Huge gap between frame and safety. For that kind of money I'd expect perfection.
Jon

DavidR wrote:Not sure why he said it felt heavy, it was a 5'' model, just repeting his words as I didn't see the gun myself. But the owner is a collector, after they shot it that one time I bet he never shoots it again, he has many that he has that way in his collection.

If I was a collector I'd snap up an early production gun too.  

I'd like to see it perform, in shootability, accuracy and durability.  I'd bet it won't outshoot a well built 1911, given the fact that some 1911's out there are getting almost the accuracy you can expect from a barrel alone.  If sub-inch groups just testing a 45acp barrel are rare then you can't expect a complete gun to do it either. 

- Dave

BE Mike,
Thanks for shining a bright light on the real soul of Conventional Pistol, with your second paragraph.  
We can however be grateful for the dudes obsessed with equipment; they are great for our economy, and we'll never have to worry that they'll ever pose serious competition.