What is the likely cause of this pattern?

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What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:00 am

Shot my first 900 match (22 RF, all 25 yards turning targets) Shot a 770.  This match and all my practice targets exhibit the same pattern, a pronounced egg shape with the pointy ends at 1:30 and 7:30.  Every target nearly the same.  I am an old guy shooting iron sights and right handed.  I have shrunk the group size to nothing out of the 5 ring but the same pattern persists.  Thanks for any insight you may have.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:10 am

Shots at 7:30 are from trigger control: you are forcing shots off instead of waiting for the shot to break cleanly. 1:30 is probably from heeling the grip; you are applying inconsistent grip pressure. When you anticipate the shot going off you are physically compensating by pushing rear of gun with the heel of your hand. Shots will go up and right because you are right handed. So basically you are flinching. Dry practice will help you reinforce/learn fundamentals. Live fire shows that you can actually apply them.
Jon

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:55 am

borrowed from Bullseye encyclopedia.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:36 pm

I will sure focus on those things, we will see how it works out.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by dronning on Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:42 pm

Whoa! do not focus on those things or you are sure to repeat them.  Focus on the correct grip and triggering and then those things will go away!  

- Dave

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jack H on Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:12 pm

Dude.  One must learn what is correct before one can focus on it.

Discuss.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by john bickar on Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:23 pm

Jack H wrote:Dude.  One must learn what is correct before one can focus on it.

Discuss.

The OP should go through the Marine Corps manual and work through its exercises. Learn to shoot 10s.

Someone will come along and post the better version of the "Wheel of Misfortune" (the one with "there you go, keep doing that" in the center) shortly. The one that Jim posted is the worst thing to happen to pistol marksmanship in the past 100 years (sorry Jim).

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:36 pm

oh, okay.. I didn't look at it closely...

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:26 pm

Thanks guys, I will keep reading and pick this up soon.  I am mostly a small cal rifle guy, use a 20-Swift in Washington and a 17-204 in Arizona.  I can run them just fine.  This is totally different, so a little education is in order.  I've been shooting the pistol for almost a month now.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:18 pm

Shoot on a blank target back.

Tell me how your groups look on that.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Tim:H11 on Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:18 pm

There are a lot of ways to learn how to do any given task and to get good results. What you all are saying differs none from what I do. But before I got into bullseye I shot a timed fire and rapid fire target like a slow fire target. Take a shot and then reset my self. Focus on what happened during the shot AFTER the shot and THEN spot it. I tried to learn how to call my shots. A spotting scope can be a nasty crutch. You need to be confident in knowing where your shots are going. I learned how to shoot at 25 and 50 yards BEFORE picking up the pace for a "real time" rapid/timed fire string. 

Speed is a bi-product of learning how to do something well and learning it to where you can repeat it on command. It happens that the command is do it in 10 seconds or 20 seconds. I understand that there is something to be said about learning how to recover from a shot for the next shot for sustained fire. But I feel and believe that with out a proper understanding of the fundamentals and mastering them to a certain degree, the learning process for sustained fire is lengthened and can be brutal and aggrevateing. You'll chase reasons why your groups look that way and experiment with all sorts of grip ideas and trigger control. 

Learn to shoot well first. Then apply that to an attempt at sustained fire. There is no substitute for the understanding of the fundamentals.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:48 pm

"Shooting well" is hard for a new pistol shooter to put in perspective as it has NOTHING to do with a score.

That's why it is SO important for new shooters to practice on target backs until the group is round and the size of the black.

A round group it what "shooting well" means.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Tim:H11 on Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:31 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:"Shooting well" is hard for a new pistol shooter to put in perspective as it has NOTHING to do with a score.

That's why it is SO important for new shooters to practice on target backs until the group is round and the size of the black.

A round group it what "shooting well" means.

Agreed. I never really clarified "Shooting Well". It was taught to me that I had to learn how to fire one good shot. And then be able to do it again on command. I'm not saying don't shoot on blank targets or target backs. I'm saying learn the fundamentals and don't beat your self up over timed and rapid fire just yet. Walk before run sort of thing. The reason I had such a head start on my 22 scores when I started bullseye is because I had a substantial foundation through slow fire with muzzleloaders and .22 pistols for practice for the muzzleloaders and air pistols. And really I'm saying what worked for me and what helped me get a head start. Not saying it's the be all end all. But it was effective.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:48 pm

Good points Tim.
I teach SF and 5 good shots to all prospective BE shooters. You have to know what a good shot looks like and feels like. SF is good for breaking down fundamentals individually and then focusing on only one fundamental to break good shot. Sustained fire shows you that by keeping the trigger moving continuously you cab shoot well. The combination of both reinforces good shooting. Shooting back of target is only small portion of learning how to shoot well. That's why I dry fire blank wall before using target for each training session. If you watch what you are doing as you do it you get feedback. Adjust accordingly. If your not getting feedback your wasting ammo. In otherwords, to get better you have to break down and train. Not just shoot. Trigger squeeze error is the single most biggest failure of most shooters. The rest of the fundamentals have less effect on shooting well. 
Jon

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:52 pm

The reason I wanted the original poster to shoot on the blank target is because I suspect that he was trying to snatch perfect shots. The pattern he described was consistent with my early struggles with that.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:58 pm

Tomorrow I will shoot a blank sheet of paper and a target to compare, Thank you guys for the information, we will see what things look like tomorrow.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:28 pm

Shot again yesterday, from left to right, first target shot, then the blank paper, then one more target then the last target which is shown.  These are reduced size targets supposed to represent size at 25 yards when shot at 10 yards.  The blank sheet is shot at 47 feet, the longest at my indoor range.  Thinking I may get tired then things open up.  Each target is 45 shots, the blank sheet is however many you see.  Could need some more arm strength?  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Wobbley on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:53 pm

45 shots per session is a lot.  While a 2700 is an endurance exercise, you don't need to train this hard especially when starting.  I suggest that you shoot no more than thirty shots per session the take a break. At you stage in development you need yo concentrate on breaking good shots.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:05 pm

Larry,

Your 47 foot blank target looked pretty good! Your reduced 10 yard targets don't give a good analog as they are reduced international pistol targets.

Are you shooting iron sights or a red dot?

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:37 pm

iron sights on it.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by r_zerr on Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:21 pm

The targets strongly suggest that you extended your practice session way too long, were fatigued and at the end were practicing bad shots.

You want to practice shooting good shots and (learn when) to quit on as much of a high note as you can.

-Ron

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jack H on Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:25 pm

Stop using 10 yards.  Your 47 is close enough to the 50 foot gallery distance. 

You need to see a good shot in your sights before you even consider the target. 

Make sure your vision is able to clearly see the front sight.

Make your initial goal as seeing a good shot in the sight.  If you are not satisfied in 10 or so shots, rest several minutes and reflect on the positive.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:10 pm

Larry,

Stop using those targets with irons. Use official NRA 50 foot targets.

Holding irons over that big black is not compatible with focusing on the front sight which is THE NUMBER 1 PRIORITY ABOVE ALL OTHERS when shooting iron sights.

You will be EXTREMELY inconsistent if you are unable to focus on the front sight and the front sight only.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:15 pm

I'll try the 50 foot target next trip and see how it does for me.  I've been holding a 5 pound weight out some to try to get a little more strength and a little less shake in my arm.  All good thoughts, thanks again, this is a nice place to visit.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by john bickar on Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:49 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Holding irons over that big black is not compatible with focusing on the front sight which is THE NUMBER 1 PRIORITY ABOVE ALL OTHERS when shooting iron sights.

Rob,

What sort of sights do you think people use when they shoot on those targets for their intended purpose?

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

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