Which recoil spring

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Post by Willfish30 on 4/21/2019, 2:21 pm

II have a Rock River Arms wadcutter with a bullseye rib and an Ultradot 25mm dot mounted on it. With Zero LSWC 200 and 185 gr, I am experiencing misfeeds. The are hanging up on the the feed ramp 2 or 3 times a box. Should I try a lighter or heavier recoil spring? It has about 1000 rounds through it.

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Post by Wobbley on 4/21/2019, 3:18 pm

What is your crimp?
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/21/2019, 3:40 pm

Don’ know, they are Zero reloads.

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Post by Wobbley on 4/21/2019, 3:44 pm

Feeding issues are more likely not enough crimp and the brass hangs on thechamber.
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Post by jglenn21 on 4/21/2019, 3:46 pm

A picture of your jam would help..

Is this a newly built gun
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Post by james r chapman on 4/21/2019, 4:14 pm

do you know what spring you currently have?
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/21/2019, 4:35 pm

I don’t think it’s the crimp cause the round doesn’t make it that far. The head of the LSWC is jammed right into the feed ramp as if it doesn’t have enough energy to make it up the ramp. It’s bone stock so it has the factory recoil spring of 11#. Your right, a pic would be good. It’ll have to wait til the next range session.

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Post by james r chapman on 4/21/2019, 5:19 pm

Tried different magazines?
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/21/2019, 5:52 pm

Yep, happens with all four mags I have from Rock River.

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Post by jglenn21 on 4/21/2019, 6:01 pm

if this is a new pistol have you talked with RRA
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/21/2019, 6:09 pm

Yep, it's fairly new, have about 1000 rounds through it. Called Rock River and they said that it's probably ammo related and that I should try other ammo. I don't reload so I'm limited to purchasing ammo. I'm going to try different recoil spring weights and see if that works. It's a pain because of the two piece FLGR but I'll try that first.

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Post by kc.crawford.7 on 4/22/2019, 7:03 am

Will you can use a GI spring guide while you're tuning recoil springs.  Then put your 2 piece back in and confirm it's GTG.
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Post by Outthere on 4/22/2019, 7:23 am

I have the same pistol and scope set-up. It has a 15# recoil spring.

It functions perfectly with Federal GMM, AYSM, and Michigan Ammo loads. All are 185gr.

The GMM has their FMJSW, AYSM uses ZeroJHP, the Mich.Ammo is older and has the Star lead SWCHP bullets.

The only issue I ever had was with GMM. On the line. At Perry, of course.

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Post by Willfish30 on 4/22/2019, 11:31 am

kc, you must have been reading my mind. Just ordered the GI guide rod and plug last night.

Outthere, your pistol must have come with the same 11# recoil spring, what made you change it to 15#? I guess I'll start trying heavier recoil springs and see what happens. Maybe I'll try the 15# spring right away since it seems to be working for you. Of course the only issue you had was on the line at Perry, heaven forbid it would happen during practice.

Just trying to make this pistol more reliable for Perry.

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Post by hamdenman on 4/22/2019, 3:30 pm

My Rock River wadgun does the same thing with any lead button nose round. It loves the long nose lead 185 and 200’s but chokes with every mag on the button nose with lead reloads. It does not do it as often with the Federal Gold match, and I used those as the basis for my reloads. Same OAL and crimp. 4.1- 4.3 bullseye. To be fair the guys were at Perry and offered to look at it, but I didn’t bring any of the reloads to show them.

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Post by Dcforman on 4/22/2019, 4:45 pm

Since no one's asked, and probably isn't the issue, since Rock River builds a good gun, but...

Is the barrel ramp set back 0.030" (or so) from the top edge of the frame ramp?

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Post by DA/SA on 4/22/2019, 4:52 pm

Willfish30 wrote:Yep, happens with all four mags I have from Rock River.
Any chance that you could borrow a magazine of a different brand from someone else to try?

Yours from RRA should work, but it would be a simple test.

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Post by Willfish30 on 4/22/2019, 7:50 pm

Thank you all for the great suggestions.

Dcforman, I’m not sure if the barrel ramp set back would matter in this case as the head of the round never makes it up to the barrel but jams right into the feed ramp.
DA/SA, good idea. I have some Wilson mags that I’ll try.
I’m gonna try some different recoil springs.
Polish the feed ramp a little more with Flitz.
Try different ammo and mags.
All one at a time. If all else fails, I’ll see Rock River at Perry.

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Post by Jack H on 4/22/2019, 7:58 pm

This from my rediscovered old Lava files and the Sprinco guy in 2004.

The "Open Load" of a 1911 recoil spring ( measured when the slide is open) is calculated by compressing the spring to a height of ~1.600". This is the length of the free space within the spring tunnel when the slide is fully compressed. A recoil spring of proper design should not be fully compressed to it's "solid height" at this point. If a recoil spring is too long, the slide will over-compress the spring past it's elastic limit, and proper performance and spring life will be diminished.

When polymer shock buffs are used, this should be taken into consideration, as the recoil spring will lose the ability to travel the thickness of the buffer, thus effectively increasing the "solid height" of the spring. Coils should be measured and clipped accordingly to insure longer spring life. When you purchase a recoil spring, the "weight" that is on the packaging is actually the "Open Load" that is achieved when the spring is compressed to ~1.600" when measured on a spring tester.

The other important measurement is the "Closed Load". This is taken at a compressed height of ~3.85". This represents pressure that the spring opposes the slide when  in full battery. As Ed states, the ideal recoil spring will be the one that most closely hits the "Open Load" represented on the manufacturers packaging, and has the highest possible "Closed Load" reading when tested.

When a shooter elects to combat the effects of felt recoil and muzzle climb with using heavier and heavier recoil springs, it will reduce muzzle CLIMB, but this will result in increased muzzle DIP when the slide returns to battery at higher velocity than "normal", thereby negating the ultimate objective of faster sight recovery, especially in TF and RF.

A great spring testing jig is available direct from SDM Fabricating (good folks, and very helpful) or through Brownells. The little fishing scale that comes with it is amazingly accurate. (One suggestion, lubricate the rod and spring prior to pulling a load, as significant errors can result from the increased friction between a "dry" rod and spring.)

We have other ways of dealing with issues of proper spring selection and managing recoil, but this thread is for technical and informational issues on recoil springs.
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Post by jglenn21 on 4/22/2019, 9:19 pm

The jam you have is a classic example of the .030 barrel setback not being preset. Not likely these days but..
Pictures.

Depending how far up the jamed round is a strong extractor can also be the issue
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/23/2019, 12:18 am

Jimmy G, I'm not savvy enough to measure the barrel set back and it was hard to take a photo. The head of the jammed round is stuck on the feed ramp on the frame. It never makes it up to the ramp of the barrel. Most of the time when I have that kind of jam, a tap on the back of the slide will chamber the round. OK during slow fire but, possible timed but impossible to accomplish during rapid.

I'm gonna try what I had previously stated and if that doesn't work, it's going back to Rock River.

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Post by Outthere on 4/23/2019, 7:05 am

Willfish30 wrote:kc, you must have been reading my mind. Just ordered the GI guide rod and plug last night.

Outthere, your pistol must have come with the same 11# recoil spring, what made you change it to 15#? I guess I'll start trying heavier recoil springs and see what happens. Maybe I'll try the 15# spring right away since it seems to be working for you. Of course the only issue you had was on the line at Perry, heaven forbid it would happen during practice.

Just trying to make this pistol more reliable for Perry.
I don't remember what recoil spring was in it originally. I've had it since 2004. I don't remember why I wound up with the current set-up.

The bad round I had was during RF. It just went "poof" and barely hit the paper at the bottom near the frame.

It didn't even extract the fired case. 

I've used the cheap Metalform mags with the round follower since new. No issues with them.

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Post by jglenn21 on 4/23/2019, 7:48 am

How about a picture of the top of your magazines
Mainly the follower and feed lips. What you want to try are different styles of feed lips
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Post by Willfish30 on 4/23/2019, 9:01 am

Having a problem posting pics but I will be trying other mags.

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Post by Jon Eulette on 4/23/2019, 1:46 pm

Crimp almost never (99.9%) causes failure to feed. Unless pistol is super tight recoil spring has small effect on feeding/chambering.
Magazines and feedramp transition (frame ramp past the barrel) is most common and then too much extractor tension.
Is the bullet tip getting deformed by the bottom of the barrel feed ramp? This is indicative of the barrel feed ramp sticking too far to the rear and is acting like a knife edge and digs into the bullet nose.
Lots of good advice above. Pictures really help internet gunsmithing Wink
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